That's a good idea. I was also thinking about making another page for bosses, including That One Boss,Anti-Climax Boss and Goddamned Boss.
Edited by animuacid
TAMAYA~!!
I'm trying to come up with characters that could qualify for the Woobie status to varying degrees: straight (Teppei, Freminet...), Iron (Navia, Xiao...), Jerkass (Diona, Eula...), Stoic (Neuvillette, Zhongli...), Wheelchair (Collei, Dunyarzad), Species (The Hillichurls, the Melusines...), etc. so that we can alleviate this page a lot of weight, since it's starting to give us the "too heavy" warning again. So far it's a sandbox, so nothing is confirmed as of yet. Hopefully everybody is okay with it?
Edited by EddieBeep Hide / Show Replies
That sounds like a great idea. Would you want to work on the sandbox yourself or would you like help?
Once again insane about Xiao
I've been working on one for so long, but it's not finished. I could DM you the characters I have thought fit the bill, but I haven't written about.
Dori's PR agent
I know Liloupar is rightly reviled by parts of the fandom, but I think she'd be a great fit for Magnificent Bastard.
Edited by CatVillianess Once again insane about Xiao
Well, the page needs to be broken up again. What gets its own page this time? Perhaps Complacent Gaming Syndrome? The Unintentionally Unsympathetic bit that I may have made a tad too long because there was a lot to unpack?
Project Muse Director
Eh? Does Dori get to be the Jerks Are Worse Than Villains part? Because, as events and stories fold, we get to see on how unsympathetic Dori is, especially since she is livid at the fact that Kaveh destroyed the Diadem of Knowledge, made worse by the fact that she knows on how dangerous it is, yet she thinks of selling the Artifact of Doom to any willing buyers without a care for potential disasters.
If approved, it will be the following:
- Dori happens to be a rare case where she is a playable character. While not on a villainous scale (like the Fatui and the Abyss Order), she is far more hated in the fandom due to her Greed and It's All About Me demeanor when it comes to Mora, and her Kick the Dog moments (such as draining Layla's savings for sleep gummies, and threatens to raise Kaveh's debt for doing the right thing of destroying the Diadem of Knowledge, completely heedless about its dangers). While she has a backstory to explain her current behavior, this completely falls flat as she has no problems taking advantage of even innocents to earn money (which includes attempting to drain an Eleazar-inflicted Collei out of her savings just to buy a refresher, which Dori might've succeeded if not for Tighnari's timely intervention).
AzulStryer
Would making Base-Breaking Character entries be majorly risky?
Hide / Show Replies
Does Childe qualify for Ron the Death Eater in addition to Draco in Leather Pants?
Should we put the flaws of the Akasha down for Accidental Aesop? It seems to double as a callout/warning for people who will believe anything they read on the internet, don't do any fact checking, and forgo the learning process altogether because they think that wikipedia and a few You Tube videos is all they need to become instant experts.
I think Raiden Shogun qualifies to be a Base-Breaking Character. Earlier the example was removed, because there needs to be a "vicious conflict" about the character, but I'm pretty sure there is one. Recently, this tweet
about Scaramouche caused much uproar and discussion quickly got to arguing over Ei's actions. Unfortunately, the retweet that had the most heated comments about her was deleted, but clearly saying anything in this subject is asking for a war. There were also some death threats, but that's actually common on Twitter.
One point doesn't make a line though. A base breaker needs to have a long history of back and forth with defenders and haters taking up most of the fanbase. Raiden tends to be pretty overwhelmingly popular (mostly due to her gameplay and not her character) and while I've seen some controversy it tends to be brief and dies off really fast.
Food for thought: Vindicated By History subsection for characters that released to ridicule and then were discovered to be absurdly powerful? The most ridiculous examples I can think of are Raiden ("somewhat subpar DPS" to "sustained Burst support that happens to deal respectable DPS in the process") and Kokomi ("lol can't crit, lol just heals" to "consistent hydro application + tenacity of the millelith", "healing's alright actually", "Sukokomon ftw", etc.) followed by Kazuha's initial lukewarm reception ("5 star sucrose, so bad" to "5 star sucrose, so good"). It happens pretty constantly...
Hide / Show Replies
It would only work if nothing has happened to the character that would change perceptions, either internally (Ocean Hued Clam changed opinions on Kokomi) or externally (Kazuha shot up in popularity when more enemies immune to vacuum effects were added). And we also have to be careful about vocal minority effects too. Like Raiden was the top selling banner on release and rerun, so those underestimating her were a small crowd.
Edited by Stage7-4
Should Ningguang get an entry under Unintentionally Unsympathetic? One branch of her hangout event focuses on the sacrifice she makes in the Liyue story, but I have a hard time appreciating her troubles when the game often reminds players how rich, powerful, and beloved she is. Also, recent events have more or less given her back everything she sacrificed.
Edited by MajinWaffle
Should Tier Induced Scrappy be moved to its own page, like with Game-Breaker? It's becoming pretty long by this point.
Hide / Show Replies
Maybe, but let's try condensing it first as some of these entries are old and outdated. Talk around Qiqi and Kokomi has softened after the Ocean-hued Clam set came out, the Noelle entry can be cut since it's vague on her current status, and I think electro, overload, and electro-charged can all be merged since it centers around the same issue.
Solitary Observer
Could we possibly add high tiers in Tier Induced Scrappy?
Hyperfixation, guaranteed! Hide / Show Replies
No, Genshin Impact is purely PvE, so there's little cause for people to call for nerfs when other people using high-tiers has no effect on them. Any suitably high-tier characters fall under Game-Breaker instead.
"Roses are red, violets are blue, if I had a brick I'd throw it at you."
Ok... So this may be too early for this but, I wanted to start this discussion nonetheless so we can prepare for it when the time comes.
Is Kokomi considered The Scrappy? And I don't mean Tier Induced Scrappy because that much is a given (her kit is flat-out flawed beyond belief). I mean a genuine scrappy because fan hate for her extends beyond gameplay and into her character herself, as she suffers from bad Character Development overall and the story didn't present her in the best light. Hatred for her appears to be nigh universal by the fanbase.
If Kokomi does qualify for The Scrappy, she'll be viable for an entry in March 2022 per the six-month waiting period of the trope.
Hide / Show Replies
I think it's a bit too early to say for certain. Kokomi's release coinciding with the extremely poor reception to the Anniversary event may have caused her to get more hate than she normally would have. We'll have to see if it persists after the flames die down. Stuff like this is why we wait six months to see if it's consistent or if people cool down on it over time.
"Roses are red, violets are blue, if I had a brick I'd throw it at you."
I agree, let's wait six months and see. It's really common for opinions on characters to suddenly change right after their banner leaves (Kazuha for example).
While I agree that Kokomi's kit is really bad, I feel the hate for her character is just a bleeding effect. It will die down over time.
Same opinion on withholding judgement until more time has passed. And we had to ban one troper who clearly wasn't about to agree to Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement regarding the anniversary backlash.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
So how are we going to address the elephant in the room that is the Anniversary fiasco? Cringey rewards and exploitative competitions is one thing, but I'm not a terribly big fan of the backlash either...
Hide / Show Replies
Late for this, but for now, best not to add anything as of yet until the whole situation dies down enough that we can better reflect on it. Right now, everyone is in knee-jerk mode, and knee-jerk reactions are not allowed per policy.
Albert's The Scrappy entry may no longer be viable. I recently restored it per the terms of the trope's six-month waiting period, but based on an attempted change by Aker-Sama which tried to paint Albert in a positive light, I'm starting to get the impression that he's no longer seen as The Scrappy by the fandom and is simply a Base-Breaking Character at best. Six months is enough time for the fans to mellow out on their initial hate for the character, after all.
That said, I'm not too sure about this myself, so some helpful input from fans would be appreciated.
Hide / Show Replies
Had to go back and remember who he is, as I don't think opinion on him has changed since the Windblume festival. It's more that the Mondstadt cast is out of the limelight at the moment, in favor of Inazuma and to a lesser extent Liyue.
The question for me is whether Albert is intended to be endearing, or did the developers intend him to be a creepy stalker. Because The Scrappy isn't just a universally hated character, it's one that the developers wanted you to like.
Based on Barbara's own revulsion towards Albert, I think he's a clear hate-sink and does not qualify as The Scrappy.
Edited by Stage7-4
I don't actually like Albert either. I mostly made that edit since I got the impression that the players are supposed to think he's annoying, given the obvious aversion every other character has to him.
Alternatively, we're supposed to laugh at his stalker "antics", but the lengths he goes to try and get Barbara's attention is just too creepy to be funny.
"Roses are red, violets are blue, if I had a brick I'd throw it at you."
By the looks of it, given his minimal role in the game prior to his Version 1.4 spotlight boost, I think Albert was originally intended by the devs to be a Played for Laughs version of the Loony Fan trope, so I doubt that he was a hate sink by default. It wasn't until after 1.4 launched that fan's opinion of him shifted more negatively, leading to his then The Scrappy status.
Maybe Unintentionally Unsympathetic would be a better trope for Albert?
I am not sure what the developers were intending with Albert but the impression I get from the community is he is still viewed negatively.
So should his The Scrappy entry still remain? Given that the fandom's opinions of him still hasn't changed since 1.4, it looks like it's still valid. That, and there's no concrete info available to know if he was intended to be sympathetic or a Hate Sink.
The That One Sidequest entry is becoming way too bloated. The "Sakura Cleansing Ritual" one is definitely a tipping point (nevermind the fact that it's a complainy Wall of Text), so we really need to clean this up, sort out valid entries and maybe create a new sub-page if necessary.
Hide / Show Replies
[[Memes/DevilMayCry The Time Has Come]]
That One Sidequest has 13 paragraphs now. It's becoming too long, but I don't know what to do with it:
- Trim it down a bit?
- Trim large parts of it (It looks like most of these are bordering into Walkthrough Mode)?
- Move it into a separate That One Sidequest subpage (Perhaps it's also possible for the examples to be moved to a separate page and trimmed afterwards)?
I feel we need to cull all temporary content entries. Or at least do something about it, as it's bloating multiple tropes.
Edited by Stage7-4
Can Keqing be removed from the Game Breaker page. Tier lists often rank Keqing below the other 5 star DPS characters and the Abyss stats I seen for 36 star clears show her as one of the least used 5 star character. The abyss stats I read are here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16_nQ1bXax6BIKB8gsanJKX6FZ1MZ39JxGrlI7_Y9Ahk/edit#gid=137381226
I've been asking to cut her for a while, but I think we wait until 1.6 as electro is getting a buff and I wonder how Keqing will be effected. If that doesn't propel her back up, then we should cut her.
Edited by Stage7-4
Is it alright to add a Vocal Minority trope in YMMV? It seems like with the way the Genshin fandom is currently interacting, those who had much to hate or pick on the game for varying reasons (Troll, harassing uninvolvedpeople, etc) are the loudest voices that are known in regards to Genshin's fandom right now.
Regarding the Unfortunate Implications trope, I'm hiding it for a while but here's what I managed to look up regarding the start of the Genshin Boycott:
1: It starts as a discussion from salty fans who complain about the Inazuma map being delayed.
2: The part about the hilichurls being based on indigenous people turns out to be a misinformation. The arguments involved also ignored how there IS an In-Universe lore about Hilichurlian culture to show that there's more to them beyond enemy mobs.
3: Some hours after the start of the fiasco, some of the more advocated people arguing and supporting for the movement ended up showing some shades of Moral Myopia, with some proof of players out in the west calling languages from Asian countries such as Thailand and Indonesian as "Hilichurlian". (One proof of the case here: https://twitter.com/beiynq/status/1379748578340392960)
So in light of those things, I decided to hide it for a while but I wanted to know if the trope page is still worthy of being kept on the page in light of this information. In my view, the behavior of some of the more vocal players with this news some hours after the Genshin Boycott movement slowly died down just come across as a discourse started from players who think that Reality Is Unrealistic.
I won't deny that the game has problems of it's own, but this information I found through my search of social media just made me doubt how credible some of the more vocal issues of the game are being discussed about through the "Genshin Boycott" movement.
Edited by transparentanswer Hide / Show Replies
The problem of the Hilichurls is the same as the problems of say, orcs and goblins in other fantasy genres. Always Chaotic Evil races generally cause this problem despite being so common in the genre.
Despite this, the arguement of Hilichurls being dark-skinned and doing rather generic tribal dances is indicative of them being inspired directly by Africans or indigenous people is kind of unfounded for the simple fact that, on top of Asia also generally having a history of shamanism and tribal groups just as any other continent, I don't even think Hilichurls are supposed to be dark-skinned, it's entirely possible their dark color comes from dark fur.
Coupled with their long upright ears, it's entirely possible that regular Hilichurls are supposed to be somewhat bat-like, with Mitachurls being more akin to minotaurs and Lawachurls straight up being golems/rock people. Other than the rather broad "primitive" aesthetics, there's little else that indicates they're supposed to be indicative of any specific or even broad culture or ethnicity.
I still wonder what the Genshin Boycott expect them to do, specifically about the Hilichurls design. Assuming they even can be changed, what should be changed about them? Should they be light skinned instead of supposedly dark skinned? Should the idle tribal dances that literally only appear in some sidequests and in the occasional open world camp be removed? This is not sarcastic, I honestly want to know.
I did look up at the tweet that started this but it seems the original poster has deactivated their account since the misconception has cleared up and their claim unfounded.
To be frank? I'm not sure either at what they are expecting the devs to change about Mihoyo.
Now that the claims are all cleared up and turned out to be unfounded, added onto how the actual party they claim to be "speaking" for are actually... Not so offended, the major issues discussed just seem like performative activitism. They claim to be doing it for another group, only to do nothing that will actually help the group they are speaking for.
Ah, how did I miss this? Anyway, bring this up in the Unfortunate Implications Citation Discussion. They'll determine if those sources you linked will be valid or not.
Alright, given the Edit War situation taking place right now, I think it's best not to add the example to the page. It's becoming too contentious.
F
So this example was deleted from Game-Breaker:
- Xiao quickly establishes himself as one of the game best DPS and perhaps the fastest as well, with a combination of his reliance on critical hits. As a brutal Lightning Bruiser, he boasts a really strong base attack that easily rivals Diluc and top of that he’s really fast as well. His Elemental Skill, Lemniscatic Wind Cycling, can be used while he’s on mid-air, which not only very easy to use but also have a very fast charge as well and allow him to attack Ruin Guards and Ruin Hunters right on their weak spot easily, making the usually annoying enemies turn into an absolute work only in seconds. But perhaps his best ability lies on his Elemental Burst, Bane of All Evil, which gives him an attack buff at the cost of his health, that able to stacks to 25% with help from his 1st passive talent. This turns his already strong attacks and ability into a whole new level, not only his speed is increased, his lunge attack turns him into a brutal AOE damage dealer that allow him to stagger enemies easily and his Anemo element allows him to easily fuse with certain other elements at ease, increasing his utility. On top of that, his Crit Rate raise as you level him up, combine him with powerful weapons and Artifacts that boost his Crit Rate/DMG, he easily destroys his enemies with powerful attacks and will frequently spawn Crit DMG every time. As a bonus, he had a passive that will allow you to survive falling from high places and reduces stamina for climbing, which adds up to his utility besides battling. At full constellation, he able to endlessly spams his Elemental Skill and Elemental Burst easily.
Any problem with this example?
Hide / Show Replies
I don't have any problem with Xiao specifically, and no idea why this was cut (they cited bad grammar?). Xiao might not reach Ganyu's crazy levels of broken but he's definitly up there.
However I do feel we need to eventually get pickier on what gets a Gamebreaker entry, as we can't just add nearly every single 5-star character that comes out. And I feel Keqing and Superconduct aren't as game breaking as we initially thought.
Edited by Stage7-4
If Superconduct really isn't as gamebreaking as before, people wouldn't look down on Chongyun right now.
Sorry for not noticing this earlier. The example was removed because it had bad grammar, and the troper who initially added it (Seven369) got suspended. Per policy, MichaelKatsuro removed it.
I tried pitching the example for improvements on the Get Help With English Thread, but unfortunately, it was ignored, so nothing I can do about it.
Since so many gamebreakers are 5-stars, should we just make one entry explaining that 5-stars are purposefully overpowered and only list the 4-stars that break the mold?
Because at this point a case can be made for every 5-star being a gamebreaker.
^ Albedo, Zhongli and Tartaglia aren't gamebreakers. And that's just the limited banner ones.
If it's gonna get to the point where every 5-star character is considered a "Game Breaker", then some regulations will have to be put in place to curb the misuse. Unless a 5-star character is game-breaking by their standards, they don't count as Game Breakers by default since the game makes it clear that they're Purposely Overpowered, if you're willing to fork over the money for them.
"If it's gonna get to the point where every 5-star character is considered a "Game Breaker","
I doubt it. This hasn't happened yet.
Honestly, it has. About every 5-star has a gamebreaker argument except maybe Albedo. Zhongli's buff shot him up to Venti-level support and Tartaglia still has the best AOE.
Edited by Stage7-4
Qiqi and Jean definitely aren't gamebreakers. Mona is really good at what she does but I don't think people outright call her broken either.
So I thought you're exaggerating.
Not to worry now. On the GameBreaker.Genshin Impact page, I added a disclaimer telling editors to not add every 5-star character unless they're overpowered by their standards (key word being "their"). If I see attempts to add the full 5-star roster to the page, I'll bring it up on some cleanup threads to clean up the misuse.
Edited by DivineFlame100
^^ That's what I meant by "exaggerating".
I'm not against the rule, myself, but I'm against actually writing it down.
^ If the rule wasn't written down, then people will not be aware of it.
F
It's more about the info about the character in general rather than the specific edit, but I'll put it here:
Childe fighting us isn't a spoiler. Anyone agree?
I'm still in the opinion that we shouldn't spoiler tag things too easily here. Not just talking about Childe. Minor twists don't deserve spoiler tagging.
Besides, the Golden House domain's description does mention what happened in the story, so it shouldn't be a spoiler.
Hide / Show Replies
My position is this:
1. Minor twists are still twists
2. It might be different if the YMMV had an unmarked spoiler warning, but currently it does not
3. The Golden House description only unlocks after the player has fought Childe for the first time. Not every player has been on this since October, some are new and have yet to finish the story. My sister for example knows nothing of his boss status and thinks he's just a nice guy.
4. While Childe being Fatui is obvious and revealed in official material, his boss status isn't. He was chummy enough in the story to be an ally so his betrayal was a minor surprise. His blood knight status is also a twist, as up until the reveal his fight happy side is hidden.
5. What's the harm in a spoiler tag?
Edited by Stage7-4
The Gamebreaker section is starting to get bloated. Should we trim some stuff up? I don't really think Superconduct and Keqing are as game-breaking now as they were back in October.
F
Someone deleted Character Tiers entry because it's "people sit on chairs".
I do think Genshin has tiers, but... I don't know how I should write it as a proper example. Can anybody lend me a hand?
Hide / Show Replies
Yes, the fact that it has tiers is chairs because nearly all games with characters have character tiers. Instead I'd focus on what's unique about Genshin Impacts tiers and the characters that are favored/frowned. Examples include:
1. Tiers are based with emphasis on fighting mob challenges (Spiral Abyss, Domains, etc) over exploration or boss fighting capability.
2. Pyro characters are favored due to elemental benefits
3. Fans seem to react negatively to every new 5-star on release, but then change their opinion weeks later once they've been tested
Stuff like this.
Edited by Stage7-4
F
I'm putting the entries here just in case, because I do think it belongs somewhere, just not Woolseyism
- The English translation of the game has been subject to this, as many have come to point out.
- Some of parts of the translation have been subject to debates due to questionable accuracy that changes the meaning of certain things, such as saying that Diluc and Kaeya are "brothers"note or more obviously that Tartaglia/"Childe" is a teenagernote Some have even begun to accuse the translators of dumbing things down for the Western audience whilst entirely removing the nuance from the original descriptions.
- While not exclusive to the English localization, it seems that quite a few characters undergo personality changes depending on the games translation and dub. Childe is a notable example as his personality varies greatly depending on the language the game is being played in; In the English dub, he sometimes comes off as a Blood Knight that has borderline sociopathic tendencies; in Japanese, he’s the most believable as an Affably Evil villain with some implications of a Sad Clown underneath thats not shown in any other dub version; and in Korean, he’s depicted as far more serious than any other version of himself, to the point where even the characters jokes come off as serious. In Chinese, which serves as the original basis of his character, he is more of a middle ground between the bloodknight and affably evil trope, not veering too hard into either direction.
Both Writer And Fighter
What exactly constitutes a "main character" for the sake of Ensemble Dark Horse entries? I saw Barbara and Ganyu get removed even though their roles in the game's main story were minor. Right now it seems to mean "any playable character that appears in the main story at all no matter how minimal their actual screentime is."
"Roses are red, violets are blue, if I had a brick I'd throw it at you." Hide / Show Replies
I think so, if only to establish some boundaries or else anyone can subjectively be a dark horse. And there's still a large gulf between Barbara and Ganyu's limited appearance and completely unseen ones like Bennett, Sucrose, and Chongyun. It's similar to the logic of why Gym Leaders in pokemon can't be dark horses, even if their whole contribution is "fight me, here's your badge, thank you come again."
Speaking of which, we better remove Keqing now that she had a starring role in the story.
On That One Boss, I removed the co-op healing part of the Lupus Boreas fight twice now. The NRE is relatively easy for players to obtain, and completely removes the issue of using the menu to eat. I believe Lupus Boreas still qualifies for the trope on other merits, just not this one.
Please do not add it back in.
Just as a little note, entries like Broken Base, Germans Love David Hasselhoff etc. should ideally only be added a month or two after this post, at the earliest; these are meant to describe longer-term trends rather than things that develop immediately. It sure LOOKS like the fanbase is gonna be riven down the middle on Resin and a couple other things and like the game is taking off like a rocket way outside of Mihoyo's usual wheelhouse, but we should really make sure it's a lasting trend before adding those entries.
Hide / Show Replies
Broken Base has a strict 6-month waiting period, to be exact. Any earlier and you're getting into a case with the cleanup thread.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
I was the one who added the Germans Love David Hasselhoff entry, but I didn't realize that it now has a time restriction. Sorry about that, I guess we really have to wait and see what happens with the GI fandom.
What about Fandom Rivalry, Hype Aversion or It's Popular, Now It Sucks!? I know these tropes can be controversial, but do they have months-long requirements as well?
With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
Broken Base is the only one with an actual, fully-enforced time limit, but the spirit of the other three (and GLDH) is pretty similar. I'd probably wait until at least December and see how things shake out before adding those entries.
EDIT: I do want to agree, though, that especially if it does manage to hold for a month or two more, Genshin will absolutely be a major example of The Hoff Effect. Even now it's probably the most successful gacha-style hero collector in the Anglophone market, ever. Absolutely no one saw it coming, and it's now crushing the #1 spot on things like the US Google Play store (thanks, Klee). Still, it's wise to be prudent for entries like this and to make sure it's a lasting phenomenon.
Edited by SpaceDrake
Page's getting too long again. Perhaps we could move Memetic Badass, Memetic Psychopath, Memetic Troll etc onto a Memetic page?
Oissu! Hide / Show Replies