Seems like a Base-Breaking Character.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
The One Who Tropes
I've been trying to put this link in for the last twenty minutes, but the new site update (Which I think is hideous IMO) keeps screwing me over (By the way guys, thanks for the heads up).
That's my citation for the recent edit to Internet Backdraft.
Don't look at me, I just came here to add some Tropes.
Just referring to a recent edit to one of entries; Leliana actually didn't tell Vivienne to restart the circle. Vivienne played on the mages's fear and with their loyalty made another circle. Leliana's the one who dismantled the whole Circle system (until Trespasser retconned that). That'd be very out of character of her to bring back a system she for all of the game spoke strongly against of.
Hide / Show Replies
So Evangelos Kamikaze had a bit of an issue with one of my entries.
- Dorian's companion quest Last Resort of Good Men is about
personal freedom vs. political obligationgay rights, in a nutshell. The ultimate point is less about how wrong it is for anyone to be forced into fulfilling any kind of familial duty, than really about how a homosexual child of a conservative, proper, well-respected family copes with each other.
- Dorian's companion quest Last Resort of Good Men is about
My question is less why Evangelos Kamikaze did this and more "If you were going to make the entry look like this in order to ovrride my opinion with yours, why not just delete the original with an edit reason and replace it?"
Hide / Show Replies
I agree. While I believe the quest is not about freedom vs. obligations, there's no point in a strikethrough.
I rewrote the example to fit with Evangelos Kamikaze's wishes due to having no desire to accidently starting a possible argument with them should they find issue with any attempt of mine to allow both interpretations to stand next to each other.
- Dorian's companion quest Last Resort of Good Men is about gay rights and how a homosexual child of a conservative, proper, well-respected family copes with each other.
While I don't have a problem with the edits made to my entry regarding the Dalish, I see no need to delete the note about what happened. It's a note. It's there for people who want to read what happened. I added it back. I don't think I'm causing an edit war by adding a note back but if you have a problem with it being there please let me know.
Edited by VeryMelon Hide / Show Replies
's a pretty long note. What's the point?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
To detail for others what started the Exalted Marches against the Dales. Again, if the note is a problem in anyway I'll remove it. I do not care to step on the toes of any fanwar like what used to happened with the Quarians and Geth on the Mass Effect Race page.
Edited by VeryMelon
Well, there doesn't seem to be a rule about it, but in my mind it's not really necessary. We're detailing tropes here, and the trope can be described without all the information. A little explanation is okay, but that's a pretty big note.
I have no strong feelings one way or the other.
In my opinion, if the size of the note isn't violating any rules then it can stay without issues.
For the record, notes(regardless of length) are used all over the wiki on various pages.
Edited by VeryMelon
Well, in my opinion, unless the note is necessary or very valuable to add context to the example, it doesn't need to be there. I personally don't think explaining the whole thing helps people understand the entry, since it's not enough to explain everything about the elves/Dalish. Yes, it's describing what event is contentious, but not really why.
That said, I don't care.
However, I don't agree with the alterations you made to the Morrigan entry. Not everyone thinks there's something wrong with how Morrigan treats Lavellan. She condescends to everyone, and, as I said, since Origins it's been clear she knows more than most elves, and at the very least thinks she does. It's not out of her character—she does, after all, lecture straight to Solas, whom everyone in the Inquisition agrees knows more about elven history than anyone else.
But, honestly, if you don't want to change it, it's fine. It's not important.
There is a definitely controversy within fandom about the handling of the Dalish Inquisitor in DAI, and the placement of Morrigan. That should be noted.
The reason I altered it was to make it sound less definitive that the Dalish Inquisitor would definitely have known what an eluvian is or various other parts of Dalish mythos. At this point, the player has spent three games getting inside knowledge on things that are actually pretty esoteric from an in-universe standpoint. One of these is an eluvian—eluvians must be explained to Warden Mahariel in the Dalish origin, who encounter one directly. Keeper Marethari is stumped when you mention a mirror—in fact, early on, the clan, Duncan, and therefore the player believe it to be Tevinter in origin.
It is Witch Hunt DLC that reveals it was elven.
Expanding on this, while Lavellan sometimes knows more than expected, based on previous interactions with Dalish clans, they ought to know less. That Morrigan knows more is affirmed in Witch Hunt, where she is able to understand more of the Dalish book than the Dalish.
Of course it stirred controversy, but it's mostly that the phrasing was misleading regarding to the nature of it. I did not append any of this because I felt it was unnecessary, but I suppose I might if some people try adding some stuff back in.
Hide / Show Replies
Regarding Family-Unfriendly Aesop: The issue here is there is no aesop. There is no moral being commented upon. It's commenting on human nature, but it's not teaching a lesson, and this is a very important part to any of the 'aesop' tropes—there must be a lesson somewhere.
This is frequently an issue with all of the aesop tropes—people simply assume that a theme is the same thing as a moral lesson. Inquisition as a game never takes that sort of moral stance.
Hide / Show Replies
Yeah, I don't think this fits, because the game doesn't force you to accept that false hope is good or necessary. I think it can be cut.
Giving this a couple more days before I make the changes again at the YMMV page...
Edited by helterskelter
First, I'd like to say—if you see there are three edits regarding the removal/replacement of a trope in a short period of time, it's probably a better idea to go to discussion before doing anything else.
Second—Tier Induced Scrappy is not "character that isn't as good as some other options, so they get used infrequently", it's "character hated by fans because they're overpowered or horrible". Even if Dorian was a really bad character, it still wouldn't qualify him unless the fandom hated him for his weak skillset. As it stands, I've never seen anyone say Dorian's combat is so shitty they can't stand him. Just that Viv & Solas are better, and they use them instead. Dorian usually doesn't rate a mention.
Especially since we're only talking about his spec, not even his entire class and skills. A destruction mage with fire and some spirit would still be effective.
Hide / Show Replies
Spec, quite literally, is the only thing that separates out the mages for the other. And the min-maxers do gush over Vivienne specifically, while Solas is portrayed as superior because the AI doesn't use Knight-Enchanter very well, or that two (if Inquisitor is one) not just requires AI, but is redundant.
I agree it is significantly downplayed in comparison to examples of the trope, but the tropes definition is that characters don't warrant a mention and there is no point in training them when other, better ones are available.
The more important part is that no one hates Dorian because of the Necromancer spec. It's not even enough for people to hate the Necromancer spec—they have to hate Dorian, too.
but the tropes definition is that characters don't warrant a mention and there is no point in training them when other, better ones are available.
And the first part of it—the more important part—is: "is a character who is widely hated because they just suck in gameplay terms"
Can you honestly say that Dorian is widely hated because of his class?
Dorian is not selected because of his class, if that is your question. Min-maxers go for Vivienne, or Solas if a Knight-Enchanter is already available. And yes, his spec is widely hated because it sucks, even if he is the nicest character around.
I think you're forcing your definition.
I think that it might be pertinent to list the Necromancer spec, and that Dorian has it, as opposed to Dorian the character. If you list the character, you are saying that he is hated because of his class. Otherwise it doesn't fit, since he's not hated by the fandom because of his class.
That sounds like an acceptable compromise. I'll reword the article, if it hasn't already been done.
Oh, bother.
Just wondering if Complete Monster should be removed. Yeah, he's an awful, awful being, but he still has one or two sympathetic qualities. A real Complete Monster doesn't have any.
Disgusted, but not surprised Hide / Show Replies
You ought to ask here
.
This was added to Broken Base:
- For example, someone Roleplaying a straight male human/elf character in their early twenties might find it Squicky to romance Cassandra (one of only two straight male romance options) who's real age is somewhere between her late thirties to early forties making Cassandra old enough be the male Inquisitor's mother. Unless of course the Male Inquisitor (the player by extension) just happens to like older women.
- This violates Examples Are Not Arguable since it mentions how some players "might" feel.
- It's rather ageist because it assumes that being attracted to someone twice your age is "squick".
- Cassandra never flirts with the Inquisitor unless you flirt first, so there is zero cause to feel squicked out unless you give yourself cause to.
- Blackwall's age may be harder to "pinpoint", but we KNOW he is older nonetheless. Why are we treating him as less squickish?
- If you don't like her, you still have Josephine.
Considering all of the above, I think it should just be left off the page.
Edited by 73.51.218.242 Hide / Show Replies
Never mind that the example writeup doesn't seem like the trope at all. Take the ax out, there is some chopping to be done.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
In addition, the age of the Inquisitor seems to be something the player themselves decides. I don't remember any point where they definitively say how old s/he is; heck, my assumption for my Qunari Inquisitor was mid-late thirties or so, considering they run their own merc company. There's YMMV and then there's adding something that isn't really in the game itself. Maybe it's different for other races, though; I've never played anything other than Qunari.
It's vague no matter what you play. At this point, I've been Human, Elf and Qunari (Rogue, Mage and Warrior, respectively) and no matter what race you are, their age and personal experience is up to you. I personally played my human male as in his forties (complete with wrinkles and gray hair) and my Qunari as in her early 20s. There's room for all of it.
Okay, we have a problem with the Broken Base and Sera so lets stop the fighting and find a solution.
Personally can we change the Broken Base for Sera back to the original where it had the people who liked the decision, the moderates who were just sad that they couldn't romance Sera anymore, and the homophobes. Also adding the people who made fun of the moderates as I feel that deserves to be in too.
Then add an unfortunate implications with citation for the debacle with the truly homophobic members of the Bioware community.
Hide / Show Replies
I don't like citing Unfortunate Implications for fan behaviour even with a citation - it's even less related to tropes than ordinary UI and Fan Dumb/Hate Dumb (the concept for problematic fandom/hatedom behaviour) is Flame Bait for a reason.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
If we cite Unfortunate Implications for that, there are a half dozen(at least) other things on this page that could use that.
...That's a work/creator trope, as well, not a fan reaction trope.
Until someone can turn this:
- Similar responses were heard when Cassandra, who had gathered quite a large lesbian following, was revealed to be straight.
Into a proper entry instead or at least exercise Repair Dont Respond, it needs to stay off the page.
Hide / Show Replies
Does this actually violate Repair Dont Respond? To elaborate it is adding an example and not trying to justify or rebuttal the example it is under.
Edited by 66.112.44.131
It doesn't violate Repair, Don't Respond since it's not responding to anything, but it's another example. It does violate Example Indentation in Trope Lists since it's a lonely third bullet point.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
...and now there's one for Solas, instead. I changed it to reflect both, and un-indented it.
Roman Bowler has removed the following entry to The Scrappy twice, violating the wiki's Edit War rules. I'm bringing it here to Discussion because readding it would be further violation of the rules.
That being said, I have no opinion on this subject one way or another. I can see both sides of the debate and don't really see a problem with having her listed. So count me as a half-vote for "Keep".
- Bianca Davri, Varric's star-crossed beau, was poorly-received by many fans. Part of the problem is that any attempt to introduce and explain the namesake of Varric's crossbow was always going to have a hard time living up to the expectations built up by way the previous game treated the story as a great mystery; for a lot of fans, bringing Bianca the person into Inquisition was answering a question that nobody was actually asking. Making matters worse is the fact that Bianca appears only briefly, is stated to have a huge number of accomplishments and credentials in several different fields, said accomlishments surpass other characters who (until then) had been touted as THE best in each individually, and she takes an abrasive attitude toward the player character. That she turns out to have been responsible for giving Corypheus access to red lyrium and sees no personal consequences for this or any of her other actions was, for many, the final straw.
Hide / Show Replies