Main Hero Antagonist Discussion

Collapse/Expand Topics

09:33:13 AM Dec 3rd 2015
Just thought I'd better explain my recent edit as there might be some disagreement:

I removed the example citing the Basterds (from Ingourious Basterds) as Hero Antagonists. Originally just because, in my opinion, their actions are far more Not So Different than heroic. Thinking about it more, the case for them being antagonists is perhaps even shakier, as they clearly are protagonists, and although we also follow their "enemy", Landa, they are not in direct opposition for much of the film.

We can obviously debate the morality of and justification for the Basterds' actions, but I think we can objectively say they don't meet the definition of "heroic" when you include gleeful execution of prisoners, mutilation, etc.
12:02:11 PM Dec 3rd 2015
Even if Landa was the protagonist of the movie (he isn't), in any case he is the villain. But Hero Antagonist is for good guys being antagonized by another technically good guy, not for any variant of villain-hero-conflict.
12:07:47 PM Dec 3rd 2015
They're at best Anti Heroes and at worst Nominal Heroes. That movie has nothing to do with Hero Antagonist.
04:56:48 AM Dec 5th 2014
What about the police from PAYDAY 1 and 2? They are just cops who try to stop wanted criminals, but they are the enemies in the games.
05:18:59 AM Dec 5th 2014
Your description seems to fit, but I am not sure if this trope covers groups as well.
07:38:22 AM Dec 5th 2014
It should be noted, however, that while the regular cops and SWAT officers are clearcut examples of this, the Special Units (especially the Dozer and Cloaker), could be considered Sociopathic Heroes.
01:05:30 AM Dec 7th 2014
I've checked some of the entries, and some of these are indeed groups.
05:22:47 AM Jan 7th 2013
edited by MsCC93
Does anyone think Kevin from Ed, Edd n Eddy should be removed? He is more of a Designated Hero since he acts like a jerk to the Eds when they don't do anything to him. Plus he gets away with it too. He's a great hero.
05:27:37 AM Jan 7th 2013
Designated Hero examples are canonically heroes- and this is the requisite to be a Hero Antagonist.
08:44:23 PM Oct 21st 2011
edited by Harakuroi
As it is currently written, this is a poor example: it starts by saying it may or may not be an example, and argues against itself by qualification even before the crappily indented natter (please see Example Indentation). Moving to discussion.

  • Kal Zakath in David Eddings' Belgariad and Mallorean could be one of these, until he joins the companions. He's just trying to keep his empire under control for the most part. He's not actively trying to interfere with the Prophecy Journey, or support Torak (he doesn't really believe in either one). He's just responding to what he sees as a threat to his empire. Aside from his psychotic hatred for Taur Urgas, that is. He's got a pretty good excuse, though.
    • Although the protagonist Nakama around Garion certainly doesn't agree with this position... And neither does Zakath himself, when he figures out that he basically slaughtered and crucified hundreds of thousands of innocents for basically no gain whatsoever.
08:20:28 PM Jun 19th 2011
Suzaku isn't a hero antagonist, he is Knight Templar.
03:27:12 PM Jan 29th 2011
edited by Harakuroi
I've removed a number of things:

** Uh... wasn't Kuma turned into a cyborg and mind controlled by a group of people who were even worse that Afro? Just asking.

Why would somebody ask this on the main page of this trope? If the troper really wanted to know, they could've looked up the Afro Samurai article, or check to see if there's a wiki on it. He could have even asked here on the discussion page or TV Tropes' forums; he didn't have to add Natter here of all places.

** Kevin? Heroic? Kevin is only slightly more heroic than the Kanker Sisters.
*** Well, only good important character. Light's mother and sister are at worst almost all good from what little we see of them. The author essentially listed them as being the most innocent characters in the series.

A pair of Conversational Edits added by Gravity Man earlier this month which don't bring up anything that hasn't already been stated by the examples he's replying to, or aren't relevant to the trope anyway (naming characters which aren't antagonists but background characters in the case of the Death Note example).

** The Marines have a point, you'll have to admit. A lot of the pirates that we meet, including many of the crews the Straw Hats fight as well as some of the Supernova, are simply only interested in looting and pillaging, consequences be damned. During the Impel Down saga, The Star Scream Hannyabal even gives Luffy a Hannibal Lecture to make this point. You could conceivably tell the story from their perspective, which would make a lot of the pirate crews straight villains aside from the Pirates Who Don't Do Anything.

There's no point the original troper hasn't forgotten to admit. This trope is about people who would otherwise be considered heroes if it weren't for the fact they don't have the Sympathetic P.O.V.. This paragraph is something more fitting for the Anti-Villain page.

** That last bit is debatable. The opening of A's begins with Nanoha getting knocked into oblivion by Vita, and getting her linker core de-powered. But yes, their heroic goal is not arguable.
*** Well, Vita's always been the most...eager one of the four.

More needless Conversation in the Main Page, with Mister "That's Debatable" trying to naysay the example concerning Vita, but ultimately agreeing that the example is correct anyway.

* Isaac Asimov's short story "The Dead Past". There's a device that allows historians to view past events, and the government is keeping it under very tight control, supposedly for technical reasons. The protagonist thinks the government is lying, and sets out to make the device available to anyone. He succeeds, but later the government bureaucrat who was stalling him explains that the device can be set to view events a second ago just as easily a century ago. Whoops! So much for privacy!
** Your Mileage May Vary. The government explicitly used the device as Sinister Surveillance, meaning the only thing the protagonist destroyed was the illusion of privacy. And with the device open-sourced, all crimes will be absurdly easy to solve - including corruption in the government. The world might actually go sane!
*** Or not; see The Light of Other Days by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter.
**** In "Dead Past," part of the premise was that the past event viewer could not see more than a hundred or so years back. The Protagonist wanted to view Ancient History, which was something physically impossible. According to the story, the big problem with everybody getting the ability to view the past isn't just that privacy is destroyed, it's that people will waste their whole lives reliving the best moments of their past.
***** The protagonist was right in that the government was lying. They routinely published fake accounts of using the officially sanctioned time viewer to see ancient history in order to direct people's attention away from the implications of using it to see recent history. The protagonist kept applying for a chance to see ancient Carthage, and the government kept brushing him off.

A huge chunk of off-topic Conversation in the Main Page started when one troper just couldn't resist publicly debating the "Dead Past" example. The example and all the natter seem stuck on whether or not it's moral to see into the past and who should get the privilege. That's not the point of this trope.

** Your Mileage May Vary. Unquestionably a better ruler, but a kidnapper, traitor, and murderer, something that the legitimate king is not. I mean, think about it, the man employs Rupert of Hentzau, for heaven's sake.

Wiki Schizophrenia in the first person. If the Duke really does not fit this trope, the nattermonger should've just removed the example and explained why. I haven't read The Prisoner of Zenda, so I'll leave that decision up to a troper who's read it—but I've left the original example alone because, as far as I can understand of this trope, it's possible for a Hero Antagonist to work with, serve, or employ outright villains on their side.

*** In Zero 3, at least. Unless I'm mistaken, in the first Zero game, Copy X seemed to be just like the guardians. It was in Zero 3 that he stopped giving a damn about even the humans, but consider the fact that Dr. Weil was the one who brought him back. He most likely reprogrammed Copy X. Before then, he was a well intentioned extremist.

This trope is about naming the people who are Hero Antagonists. Compared to The Prisoner of Zenda, I know more about Mega Man Zero, so I can say that this conversational edit (again in the first person) doesn't belong on this page. I also removed the bit about Copy X being the truly evil person in Mega Man Zero from the original example, to ward off further naysaying over Copy X.

In other places, I've condensed some of the natter that actually has a point worth keeping.
02:36:52 AM Jul 1st 2010
edited by Harakuroi
I'm not terribly sure how to word it, but what comes to mind is any game with a karma meter. From Star Wars to Fallout, plenty of games let you choose the path of good or evil. Anyone who chooses evil is generally obstructed by both good and evil, making all the good NPCs hero antagonists. Am I making any sense?
  • To clarify, the article on Villain Protagonist explicitly mentions you can become one in most games that have a karma meter. I'm just too tired to figure out how to word the opposite; if you're the villain protagonist, all good NP Cs are by default Hero Antagonists.
10:20:15 PM Jun 24th 2010
This article so needs a picture of Captain Hammer.
10:11:39 AM Aug 7th 2015
AGREED! How is he not even MENTIONED on this?
10:20:24 AM Aug 7th 2015
Done and done!
06:03:42 AM Aug 17th 2015
That's a textbook example of Just a Face and a Caption. If no-one else removes it then I probably will.
07:07:07 PM Mar 15th 2010
Removed this quote - this is just an Obstructive Bureaucrat, not a genuine antagonist.

McLane: Anyone Copy, Channel 9, Terrorists have taken over the Nakatomi Building, Century City...
Senior Police Dispatcher: Sir, this freqency is reserved for emergency use...
McLane: NO [expletive deleted] LADY, DO I SOUND LIKE I'M ORDERING A PIZZA?!

Collapse/Expand Topics