... yeah, tropes are flexible but they still break if you bend them too far. Unreliable Narrator isn't "a guy was wrong."
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.Please note that the removal was preceded by asking confirmation on the "Is This an Example" thread.
Edited by StFan^^The example isn't "guy was wrong", the example is "scene initially seems set up to lead you to agree with Character A's subjective viewpoint, but if you consider the scene from the also-available clues to Character B's viewpoint, Character A was wrong".
^Yes, as cited in my OP. I believe that either the thread was wrong, or we're missing a super trope.
Edited by StarSwordThe example is factually incorrect, anyway. Poe doesn't antagonize Holdo "due to disagreeing with her plan to sacrifice the Resistance's capital ships to conceal transports carrying their personnel and whatever equipment they can fit aboard to a hiding place [...]". He antagonizes her and plans a mutiny because he thinks she doesn't have a plan and is full of bluster. Case in point: when Leia tells Poe what Holdo's plan is, he agrees with it. And let's not even get into how the explanatory sub-bulletpoints veer into WMG.
If you feel that Poe's actions need to be addressed somehow, try Sympathetic P.O.V.: the audience is lead to support a mutiny because the POV character believes this is the only way he can save everyone.
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!^1st para: "initially refused to tell him there even was a plan".
2nd para: That works.
So the Plot Hole entry was removed.
- Plot Hole: One that causes some issues during the last half. When the Resistance is fleeing to Crait, DJ tells the First Order about the plan to use the transport ships to sneak onto the planet and hide, which is not the issue since he overheard it. However, he specifically mentions that the transport ships had shields preventing them from being detected, something he couldn't have known since nobody but Holdo and Leia were aware of it at the time.
The reason was because it was "he guessed they had cloaking tech". I disagree since the film never has it framed as a guess, he just knows. Thats a Plot Hole. Saying he guessed is just speculation and trying to justify it.
Muramasa got. Hide / Show RepliesThat's a logical guess to make; the movie doesn't need to frame it as such. That's a rather obvious conclusion for the plan to have even a chance of working in the first place. Calling it a Plot Hole is rather nitpicky.
It is nitpicky, but its still a major moment in the movie. Saying he guessed is a meta justification and not an in story one. Thats Fanon. How he learned they had no shields is a major part of the plan failing, so him knowing it needs to be explained, and it isn't.
Muramasa got.DJ is connected to arms dealers who explicitly sold gear to both the First Order and the Resistance. It's just a case of the filmmaker putting in all the clues and then relying on the viewer to connect the dots.
This example is being edit warred over. People should discuss it here rather than edit war:
- Broken Aesop: Rose stops Finn from a Heroic Sacrifice, admonishing him that they won't win by destroying what they hate, but rather by saving what they love. However, Rose would not be alive to profess this sentiment had it not been for Vice-Admiral Holdo performing nearly the exact type of Heroic Sacrifice mere hours before and near-destroying the Supremacy.
I don't think this is an example. Shouldn't the Aesop come first, then have the character preaching it going against it later?
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain^ additionally, there's a difference in what's going on. Holdo performs her Heroic Sacrifice to save the Resistance, ie "saving what she loves". Finn attempts his Heroic Sacrifice because he "won't let [the First Order] win". He's acting out of hate, not love, at that point.
^ Furthermore, the movie goes out of its way to point out that "saving what we love" is how the Resistance will win. Poe gains the respect of the survivors when he chooses to call off the suicide attack and look for an escape route. Luke shows up to buy enough time for the survivors to escape, not to stop Kylo Ren or the First Order. Those who act out of anger (Finn's attempted suicide attack), or pride (Poe's dreadnought attack and Holdo's stubborn refusal to reveal the escape plan) end up hurting the resistance instead of helping it.
Must... not... obsessively... correct... entries and grammar... must... not...So Rose read Holdo's mind and determined that her reasons for performing a Heroic Sacrifice were just, and then read Finn's mind and determined that his reasons were unjust, and acted accordingly? Huh.
I'm sorry, I don't see it. I see one character being admired for her Heroic Sacrifice, and then another character admonished for his attempt at one, and some very silly rhetoric going on to try to justify it after the fact.
How about these:
- Broken Aesop
- Poe's subplot has his plan to save the Resistance failing due to its recklessness and compromising the much better plan Admiral Holdo was secretly enacting leading to massive casualties, teaching Poe against being a Military Maverick and against using Indy Ploy instead of by-the-book overt actions. But the only reason Poe enacted such a risky plan was because Holdo kept her plan, which Poe realizes he would have gone along with had he known, secret despite how dire their situation was causing Poe to think he had no other choice. Even if the secrecy was justifiable due to Poe's recklessness and the possibility of a enemy spy, Holdo failed to prevent Poe from enacting his bad plan and her own plan would ultimately have been compromised by the hypothetical spy which she seemingly did nothing about. Thus Holdo's overt methods which were supposed to be correct compared to Poe's improvised ones were just as guilty of making mistakes and contributing to the ensuing tragedy with Holdo's own ensuing improvisation of ramming the enemy fleet at lightspeed being portrayed positively.
- Another Aesop is against needless Heroic Sacrifice, with Poe's pressing the attack on the dreadnought after it became unnecessary causing more causalities than it was worth and Rose preventing Finn's suicide attack against the battering ram cannon which was called off as it was more important to stay alive and fight another day. But the cannons successful firing would have doomed the heroes if not for the unforeseeable appearance of the Millennium Falcon and Luke Skywalker afterward, meaning the suicide attack was necessary as there were no other options at the time. The movie also presents Admiral Holdo and Luke Skywalker's sacrificing themselves positively despite similarly to Poe they were only necessary due to their mistakes (Holdo for not informing others of their plan casing it to fail and Luke for being unwilling to act until the last minute).
^^ There's also the fact that it was pretty much dumb luck that the cave had a passage through which the good guys could feasibly evacuate. If not for that, Finn's suicide run against the giant cannon would have been 100% necessary.
This example has now been removed twice, without the courtesy of any edit reason in either case. Anybody has a problem with it? It seems legit (even though probably very common in science-fiction).
- Artistic License – Physics: The Republic cruiser manages to get just out of effective range of the First Order flagship's weapons, and then the two ships match velocities for a large chunk of the movie, rather than constantly accelerating as they would in Real Life.
Yeah, the example works. Space just does whatever in fiction and Star Wars has never been any different.
While I believe that this entry makes a valid point, it's not exactly the correct one.
"Match their velocity" means "keep up with them". Therefore, matching velocity could mean keep a steady speed or match their acceleration rate. Either way, the term applies.
The problem is that the First Order's ships are said to be slower than Resistance's. Therefore, if both ships are constantly firing up their engines (as they're doing in the movie) to accelerate, burning all their fuel in the process, then the Resistance ships will eventually get out of the First Order's range. See Newton's second law.
I think that this is the point that should be stressed rather than the fact that they match velocities.
Edit: Also, the fact that the Resistance ships just stop dead in space when their fuel runs out. That is not how space works; they should have kept moving until they hit something or got hit by something. See Newton's first law.
Edited by RoundRobin - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!The example is back in place thanks to a moderator, and the edit-warring editor was suspended.
I think we agree the example can stay, but would need a bit of expansion/clarification.
Spelling: Do we have an official source? Is it Crait or Krait or is it maybe where Krayt Dragons come from? (I know Wookiepedia says they're from Tattooine, but maybe they're an invasive species there and originated somewhere else ... I can TOTALLY believe that a Hutt imported them.)
Edited by bfunc Hide / Show RepliesUnder ship sinking: Boyega recently tweeted against the notion that Fin/Rey they were in the friend zone or sunk at all: https://twitter.com/JohnBoyega/status/943511365746126850
Honestly none of the ships have been sunk yet, so that trope shouldn't be listed.
Hide / Show RepliesI agree. Most of the entries are either Word of God or lack of screentime together.
Where there's life, there's hope.Would Rose stopping Finn's Heroic Sacrifice during the battle of Crait be considered a Negated Moment of Awesome?
Hide / Show RepliesMaybe. Consider that even if Finn succeeds in destroying the cannon, the Resistance is still screwed.
Edited by RAlexa21th Where there's life, there's hope.I'm bringing this here, because I already deleted it once and I don't want to start an edit war.
On the Poor Communication Kills topic, how is the the following an example?
- If Finn had explained he was leaving to protect Rey, Rose would not have mistaken him for a deserter and stunned him. Downplayed, as no one gets killed by the misunderstanding. Later played straight, since the stunning leads to a conversation between Finn and Rose during which a plan is conceived that ultimately makes matters much worse.
Disaster Dominoes, yes. Poor Communication Kills, no. Finn and Rose figuring out the plan doesn't result in the mutiny itself. Poe was already distrustful of Holdo and her head-in-the-sand management; he set the plan in motion but didn't organize a full-scale mutiny until he saw that Holdo was fueling the unarmed, unarmored transport shuttles.
Must... not... obsessively... correct... entries and grammar... must... not... Hide / Show RepliesLet's just hope it won't be Empire Strikes Back 2.0.
Hide / Show RepliesOkay, the back-end-forth over the capitals following an ellipsis is getting beyond silly. I always thought if the ellipsis is used to mark a pause in a sentence, then it isn't a new sentence afterward and thus it should stay in lowercase. Am I wrong?
PS: As for the four-dot ellipsis in the Opening Crawl, if I'm not mistaken that is an exact quote, and has been used ever since the first Star Wars....
Edited by StFan Hide / Show RepliesYou're absolutely correct on both counts. Unless the guy warring with you wants to come in and defend himself, I say we revert and add [yet another fucking] commented-out note at the top of the page.
Anybody pick up on a potential Biblical allusion with Luke's students/"disciples"? He has thirteen, and one betrays him... I may be reading too much into this, but it's a thought.
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted. Hide / Show RepliesQuick wiki search: There were twelve disciples (later apostles, except for Judas Iscariot who was replaced by Matthias after his betrayal and subsequent suicide). The total number of disciples, as in "people who followed Jesus' teachings but didn't follow him around", is estimated to be seventy or seventy-two.
So, besides the fact that it wasn't just one betrayer, as R Alexa21th already said, the initial number isn't right either.
Edit: You're reading too much into this, Troper. :P
Edited by pave17 Must... not... obsessively... correct... entries and grammar... must... not...Meh, I'm probably rusty, it's been ages since I looked into it. I remembered it as "twelve apostles+Judas", anyway, not "twelve apostles period".
... and I'm completely aware I read too much into things, that habit has never left me, even if I don't always take it seriously.
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.Can we add Diabolus ex Nihilo to the list of tropes? Snoke fits the definition almost exactly.
He is just evil, because. He has his force because he is evil. He is just there. He messes about with Rey and Kylo. Then he dies.
Edited by LeeRyeTheElementGuyThe social media embargo on The Last Jedi is about to lift in a few hours. I think we should lock this page until the 14th to avoid spoilers, like we did with Force Awakens two years ago.
Hide / Show RepliesI also think it's a good idea.
Edited by gjjones He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.It might be too late for that now.
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.Already done.
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Example was removed by St Fan on grounds that Poe isn't a narrator. [1]
My counterargument: Tropes Are Flexible, and what the hell else could you call him? He may not be explicitly narrating, but the Story Arc is told from his perspective. It's not "Rashomon"-Style since we aren't shown Holdo's POV, it's not really Protagonist-Centered Morality since the narrative is making a competence judgement rather than a moral judgement, and he certainly isn't an Unreliable Expositor since there wasn't any exposition going on.
Edited by StarSword Hide / Show Replies