Euphinator poll (Code Geass Spoilers)

That would just reset the entire series for no reason.

What, and the Euphinator didn't?

Besides, there'd be different dynamics this time round. Zero's still operational, but discredited and faced with a crisis of confidence. Euphemia's faced with the fact that her own country just isn't going to listen to her ideals. The Black Knights are now a very powerful Wild Card faction rather than a dozen or so disorganised terrorists. Both sides would be far less willing to negotiate with each other. The second season would have a chance to seriously up the ante.

edited 20th Oct '10 11:17:43 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

I think in character terms the Euphinator kickstarted a lot of development for Suzaku and Lelouch, who had to this point been mostly in holding patterns. And I don't just mean LOL THEY CRAZY development. (Suzaku starts to shift from passive obedience to proactivity; Lelouch really gets a seriously look at his own flaws)

The owner of this account is temporarily unavailable. Please leave your number and call again later.

Euphinator did the opposite of resetting the series. Although they did later anyway (I disliked that far more than the Euphie incident).

The way I see it, Zero doesn't exist after accepting the SAZ. It's not like he's a public figure, even to the Black Knights, so he'd just disappear after he's not needed. And its not like Lelouch likes maintaining a double life, he gets to spend more time with Nunnally when he stops being Zero. And, as they've emphasized repeatedly, without Zero the Black Knights fall apart, they just cease to exist as an entity. He's the only thing holding them together.

So we're left with Lelouch pretending to be normal, a Japan that's divided between reluctant acceptance of their fate and ineffective pockets of resistance, and Euphie finding that nothing goes her way even with her determination. IE: Exactly how the story started, except with memories of this awesome Zero guy, and I guess Suzaku with a higher rank. Given Zero's new reputation, Lelouch may find it necessary to start a new secret identity, I guess.

edited 20th Oct '10 11:29:07 PM by Clarste

Lelouch working with Euphemia...

Well, to begin with, we have three conflicted characters, all friends, but all unsure exactly how far they would go for each other. Nunally I see as the best intermediary between them and largely only an observer of events. Also, Euphemia and Suzaku are kind of an item, however Lelouch and Nunally... Are.... Friends? With both of them?

In the background Lelouch still has a secret identity that Suzaku doesn't know about, the guise of Zero would have to adjust and try not to appear weak, too familiar with Euphemia, or as though he accepted the deal because of anything shady. The black knights may still split over the issue. Schnizel is still potentially the one pulling the most strings behind the scenes in Area 11, Cornelia would still be itching for action and C.C. would be... Disinterested.

Ultimately of course, Lelouch will still have to contend with his father the Emperor, and at some point there may be a Geass arms race, however if Lelouch is able to work with Suzaku at least a little then he will have a Geass guardian, or whatever Suzaku was supposed to be on his side.

At some point Schnizel will probably do something apparently irreversible and unforgivable to Lelouch while the emperor does nothing. Lelouch looses goes on a rampage, looses everything and winds up confronting his father for his hypocrisy (as usual).

Marianne will end up supporting the Emperor, while Lelouch rejects the Emperor's plan, and comes back from C's World knowing he must now also defeat Schnizel, and they proceeds to infiltrate Schnizel's thanks to his resemblance to someone else (someone who incidentally has stolen Lelouch's role as Zero.

What? It's ironic.

Anyway, through a series of rapid promotions in which Lelouch realises the importance of everyday people, over half of britannia ends up under Lelouch's control and he and Schnizel have a big battle which Lelouch ultimately wins, but which is rendered largely irrelevant due to Euphemia and Suzaku's plot to put Nunally (who up until now had been assumed dead) on the throne.

Lelouch decides that his sister's world doesn't need him (the sole possessor of a Geass power) and he leaves. C.C. follows as perhaps she still hopes he can kill her.

Sorry about that... Ending Fatigue and all that. Also it needs more SchoolFestivals but a proper plot would have to have a whole lot more thought put into it.

I call forth Unlimited Stories!

I'm not really interested in debating the nuances of politics in a completely fictional setting, but I would say Lelouch just giving up his identity like that would be a huge risk for him. Geass or no geass, completely establishing a new persona, let alone an entire organization from scratch especially when Cornelia was trampling all the support for the heroics of a revolutionary in the Area is kind of incredulous.

And going back to Britannian politics would've been suicide for him in more ways than one, more so since all the family members he immediately had access to had no claim to the throne. If he had gone with Euphie's plan, the fact that he claimed that she would be his subordinate in the endeavor seems to be a decent indicator that he had some significant plans having to do with his old identity on the horizon before the accident.

But even if we do work from these alternative angles, I don't see why it is so necessary for him to concede to Euphie. Speaking of coincidences, just the wrong choices of words in the dialogue they had would have ended with him just geassing her anyway, if she didn't bring up dropping her entitlement fast enough. After that, he'd follow through with his original plan that made it look like she'd attempted to assassinate him and failed, bolstering his public opinion while still making the Britannians out as a bunch of nasty traitors.

The only real blip here is the fact that his eye power went crazy while he was talking about murdering Japanese people. And the moment itself was done while Lelouch was telling a joke. Did he do that? Ever? Over the entire rest of the series?

This could have been a decent development even if his eye power went wrong and he ended up ordering her to do something completely random. He would have had to work a way around the problem on the fly, finding someone else he could trick into attempting an assassination. But the actual shit that went down was not only stupidly coincidental, but also poorly presented to the audience, creating a moment that while dramatically exciting, and thrillingly unexpected, was a Wall Banger in almost every other respect.

I do think the Euphinator accident specifically could be pulled off with just the right build up, though.

edited 21st Oct '10 1:24:02 AM by Toodle

He wasn't just telling joke, he was explaining his Geass, specifically that he could order people to do absurd things that are against their natures. So while it was sort of random, its not completely out of character for him to say that.

And I didn't mean that he'd necessarily give up Zero entirely, just that he'd leave it on the backburner and only bring him out when necessary. As was demonstrated in season 2, it's relatively easy for him to revive Zero, compared to his original work. But in the hypothetical example, Zero's name would have been discredited anyway.

I've thought before that things might've been different if he'd even turned his head a few seconds earlier than he did. If the command to take root had been "shoot me" instead, and she'd shot him in the kneecap or something, things could have gotten complicated even if the SAZ wasn't stillborn, because some very suspicious things would've still happened during the ceremony. (Sure, the Princess said Zero dropped the gun and it misfired, but didn't she look like she was hiding something while she was helping him walk out? And why was she so intent on the medics not removing his mask?)

Hell, I dunno. The canon plot went all over the place, I'm lost trying to think up alternate paths.

To repost my rant from the other thread, since it explains why I am not moved by the argument that the characters needed the Euphinator event to drive the character development:

Code Geass was heavyhanded and cliche nihilism. Dropped it like a rock after the unintentional geass was put on Euphemia. I didn't need to even watch it after that, I knew what would happen- Euphemia was going to die and get her reputation horribly and unfairly ruined. Lelouch would get all angsty over it and decide to purge his guilt by killing lots and lots of people through more backstabbing manipulation inevitably leading to the harm or death of his other beloved sister because of all his attempts to protect her. In the end he probably gets killed by what's his name- his old friend who loved Euphemia- but his death somehow fulfills his master plan to make everything right. But any thought on the matter causes us to realize that it will all fall apart a few years later and everything in life sucks. Seriously, how much crap have I seen and read with that kind of plot? Way too much (mainly Sci-fi).

It's a story that's told a lot because it's dramatic. No more, no less. Not sure what this has to do with nihilism, so much as hubris. It's just the classic Greek tragedy structure.

Edit: As with all stories, the devil's in the details.

edited 21st Oct '10 5:17:39 AM by Clarste

But why not? It's a step forward, and no more. He doesn't want a specially administrated zone, he wants Japan to be liberated.  ^*

^{Well, mostly he just wants to kill Charles, but the SAZ isn't even relevant there.}

The SAZ is far from that.

But he could've said anything, and to be honest, it's not at all what I'd expect him to say. It was basically a joke, and one that doesn't at all fit with his sense of humour.

edited 21st Oct '10 5:20:26 AM by Nyktos

I guess it is.

It wasn't supposed to be funny, it was supposed to be something she would never consider doing. I think the most natural thing for him to say there would be to "kill yourself".

And the SAZ would stop Zero, which is exactly why he wanted to stop it by Geassing her into shooting him non-lethally. He relies on public support kept up by the ideals he espouses, and without that support he has nothing. While Lelouch want to kill Charles and his army wants to liberate Japan, all of Zero's rhetoric up to that point had focused on protecting the weak from the strong. He specifically set himself up as opposed to nationalists when it was helpful for him to gain public support. Continuing on as Zero after that point would have contradicted his assumed ideals.

edited 21st Oct '10 5:28:09 AM by Clarste

You are missing one of the essential elements of tragedy- which is that the audience has to identify with the hero.

For example, a great classic Greek tragedy in anime is the anime version of Chrono Crusade. Rosette is a great heroine who succeeds in her goal of saving her brother. But at the cost of dying. Why does she die? Because of her flaw of hubris. She insists that she has to be the one to save her brother and so makes a deal with the devil that dooms her. She is doomed from the beginning of the show by her own hubris. The connection between her hubris and her death is clear.

Lelouch is just an arrogant jerk. He's surely got the hubris part, but it isn't really his hubris that causes the Euphinator incident, its just Murphy's Law. That's why it's a poor execution of the hubris part of the tragedy.

Furthermore tragedy is suppose to provide catharsis. Rosette's tragedy is carathic because it's a story about trade offs- you get the feeling that if she had to do it all over again she would have- even though she is painfully crying at the end. Lelouch is just lame because you look at him and you feel that the world would have been a better place without him. He's more Villian than hero. And tragedy is supposed to be about a flawed hero.

What Greek Tragedies are you reading? Lelouch is not any more of an arrogant jerk than most protagonists of the aforementioned stories.

It could be seen as hubris to ignore the fact that he knew Geass could get out of control and knew his was playing up but refused to do anything about it because he wouldn't acknowledge that it could happen to him - but yes, the scenario wasn't the best way of making this obvious.

I found the ending pretty cathartic, though. The fact Lelouch is willing to die for his own principles (that he'd killed so many others for) is what ultimately reaffirms his heroism. He ackowledges that he screwed up.

If you get back to Greek tragedy - a lot of the heroes aren't actually that heroic. (Particularly with actual Greeks)

Hamlet's a tragic hero who causes a whole lot of death in his quest for revenge, and a lot of people might have been better off without him. (Incidentally, Lelouch is seen reading Hamlet in the first episode. In the first episode of R2, he's reading Dantes Inferno.)

edited 21st Oct '10 9:34:03 AM by Drakyndra

The owner of this account is temporarily unavailable. Please leave your number and call again later.

I agree, and I said that before. And okay, a "joke" isn't quite the right word, but he's trying to have a somewhat friendly conversation. Bringing up something that horrible is just...weird. If I was Euphy in that situation (and his Geass didn't go off), I'd be shocked to hear him say that.

edited 21st Oct '10 10:25:41 AM by Nyktos

I guess it is.

No, Lelouch has lots of black humour in him, he just seldom expresses it. But every time he smiles that kind, gentle smile of his, you can feel the sense of tragedy in it.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

What I don't understand is : why does it break suspension of disbelief ? Life is full of unexpected event after all.

There is a lot of good in the Euphinator incident

_ First, it's a good way to show that peaceful solutions are the best : with a well handed and predictable event, the show would have a lot of Unfortunate Implication and Family-Unfriendly Aesop : peaceful solution are impossible, you should always betray your would-be allies given the chance...

_Secondly, even if the event is completely unexpected, its consequence are completely logical and there isn't any Character Derailment in that part.

_Lastly, it breaks the Lelouch's steady rising in power, which is by itself a very good thing : the plot was becoming too predictable.

edited 21st Oct '10 1:59:16 PM by VioletOrange

Something I wanted to add. I thought that the ending of the first season, with Lelouch being at the Emperor's mercy, was well-done, as were the earlier parts of the second season, where he had his memory/powers back but had to trick the Britannians into thinking he didn't.

So, I really think that something had to happen that made him massively fail in the first season, and the Euphinator incident was as good as any.

I'm less convinced that another incident was necessary- Rollo's killing of Shirley. While in-character for Rollo, that event essentially made a happier ending impossible, as both Lelouch and Suzaku took their furthest leap off the Slippery Slope after that and might have crossed the Moral Event Horizon.

edited 21st Oct '10 3:58:12 PM by Jordan

Hodor

What are you trying to say: that peaceful events are good or bad? But either way, the incident was not the fault of Euphie or her peaceful solution. It happened soelly because Lelouch was carrying an Idiot Ball at the time.

Euphemia's death already killed the chance of a happy ending. I do agree that the first season finale was good and the Euphinator incident could've been passable had it be done better, but the death it resulted in and all the melodrama that transpired from it was unneeded and just not well done tragedy, IMHO. Euphie did not deserve the end she got and the way Lelouch took advantage of it and allowed her name to be ruined made him undeserving of a happy ending.

edited 21st Oct '10 4:49:39 PM by ManwiththePlan

He's trying to say that if they showed Zero accepting Euphemia and peaceful resolution occurring and then made that peaceful resolution fall apart later, forcing Zero to wage war again, that would have the Unfortunate Implication that peace talks and compromise never work.

Edit: And again your talk of "deserving" feels like your character favoritism interferes with your judgment. It's hard for me to see you as anything unlike a shipper wanting to rewrite the story to get their desired outcome.

edited 21st Oct '10 5:47:13 PM by Clarste

What, is it bad for me to have wanted a better character death than what we got? A tragic death doesn't have to be without any sort of purpose or dignity whatsoever.

edited 21st Oct '10 8:08:12 PM by ManwiththePlan

That's not what you said though.

It's what I meant. Characters dying, even ones I like, don't trouble me if they're actually done well. Euphie's death (and possibly Shirley's for that matter) showed a severe lack of caring.

/skips a few comments.

I kind of agree that Shirley's death was a bit unnecessary. I sometimes get the impression that it's main purpose was to push Suzaku and Lelouch apart again, since she actually had a chance of repairing their friendship (Seriously, half the Code Geass plot can be summarised as "Lelouch and Suzaku are on the verge of making up, but then something unfortunate happens, there is a big misunderstanding and they are enemies again.")

But Euphie was really the point when I thought Lelouch's chances of a happy ending really died.

The owner of this account is temporarily unavailable. Please leave your number and call again later.