Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

There are just a few more YMMV entries to go over regarding the Star Wars page.

As noted, there's the Clone Wars entries.

Belok Rhal and Abeloth from Fate of the Jedi.

And the Imperial agent from Star Wars: The Old Republic

RE: the Star Wars: The Old Republic example:

I was originally confused at the phrasing, as Imperial Agent is one of the character classes, but it looks like the example is referring to an Arc Villain Republic players can face off against. Unfortunately, I don't remember the guy's name.

Most officers of the Empire are huge racists. This guy runs a prison camp where he kills aliens. You see a huge pile of corpses in the place where you fight him.

Not sure if its important, but I think the guy is only in one scene.

Sorry for the lack of detail, it's been forever since I played SWTOR.

edited 29th Apr '13 9:03:30 PM by lrrose

Unfortunately, I think he roundly fails the heinous standard

I'm going to propose a rewrite for Eobard Thawne, alias the Reverse-Flash, alias Professor Zoom (stupid name). It's not that he doesn't qualify, it's just that his current entry does not, in my mind, emphasise his crimes enough, and it contains some things he is only implied to have done. Here's the current write up.

• Arch-Enemy Eobard Thawne, the Reverse Flash. It was long clear that he was a Smug Snake with no regard for human life, and he was responsible for murdering Barry Allen's wife and eventually driving Barry to kill him to save a life. But with recent revelations in the new "Flash" series, there's no going back for Thawne. It's revealed that Thawne has been using his time travel powers to "edit" his life, murdering his brother (who he blamed for holding him back), his parents (who weren't supportive of his obsession with the Speed Force), and a professional rival. He even went so far as to essentially lobotomize a woman he was in love with, just because she rejected him. It's also implied that he, possibly along with Darkseid turning Batman into a Chrono Omega bomb after Final Crisis, has screwed up time with his shit. The Flashpoint event seems to show it even further. The kicker? It's out of pure selfishness. Not out of sadism, conquest, or lust for destruction, but because he's a selfish man who plans to get what he wants at the expense of everyone else. And editing his own history will no doubt make him even worse.

Here's the rewrite I'm proposing:

• Eobard Thawne, the Reverse-Flash, and archenemy of the Barry Allen Flash. An obsessive fan of Barry's, who managed to duplicate his powers, Thawne attempted to replace Barry, stalking, and apparently murdering his wife, Iris Allen, when she rejected his advances. Killed while trying to murder Barry's new fiance, Fiona Webb, Thawne was resurrected years later, and has gone out of his way to cross every line he can find since. Using his time travel powers to edit his life, Thawne kills his brother, his parents, a professional rival, and every man that a woman he is interested in has ever dated; he then traumatises her as a child when she still spurns him. He kills Johnny Quick shortly after his own resurrection, tries to force Barry Allen, newly returned to life, into becoming the Black Flash, and during the Flashpoint crossover, alters the time stream further and further to make Barry's life as miserable as possible. Driven purely by selfishness, Thawne will take what he wants, no matter who else gets hurt in the process.

What do we think? Better? The same? Worse?

edited 29th Apr '13 11:03:40 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Either one works for me. If/when I have time I'll see if I can combine the two.

EDIT: How's this?

• The Barry Allen Flash's Arch-Nemesis is Eobard Thawne, the Reverse Flash. An obsessive fan of Barry, Eobard managed to duplicate Barry's powers. He then attempted to replace Barry, before stalking, and apparently murdering his wife, Iris Allen, when she rejected his advances. Eventually he drives Barry to kill him to save his new fiancé before he can kill her. However, Thawne was resurrected years later, and has gone out of his way to cross every line he can find since. Using his time travel powers to edit his life, Thawne kills his brother (who he blamed for holding him back), his parents (who weren't supportive of his obsession with the Speed Force), a professional rival, and every man that a woman he is interested in has ever dated; he then traumatises her as a child when she still spurns him. He kills Johnny Quick shortly after his own resurrection, tries to force Barry Allen, newly returned to life, into becoming the Black Flash, and during the Flashpoint crossover, alters the time stream further and further to make Barry's life as miserable as possible. It's also implied that he, possibly along with Darkseid turning Batman into a Chrono Omega bomb after Final Crisis, has screwed up time with his shit. The kicker? It's out of pure selfishness. Not out of sadism, conquest, or lust for destruction, but because he's a selfish man who plans to get what he wants at the expense of everyone else.

edited 30th Apr '13 4:20:16 AM by ACW

I'm kind of wondering about Stevearino, given that he's basically Steve (who isn't a Complete Monster by a long shot) raised slightly differently. That sounds like it violates our 'no Freudian Excuse' criterion.

From what I understand, Stan was strict with him but not abusive in any sense of the word. He got lots of exercise so that he was athletic. Unfortunately, he did not get much free time. That's why he did all that, because Stan was strict with him, and he did not get much free time. Stan did not abuse him, and he appologises at the end when offering a second chance.

edited 30th Apr '13 5:14:14 AM by bobg

Excuse me for saying this, but who is Stevearino, and what show is he from?

Steve's Evil Twin from American Dad.

Oh. I haven't seen that show (I don't like Seth McFarlane's shows), so that's why I didn't know.

@ACW

"It's also implied that he, possibly along with Darkseid turning Batman into a Chrono Omega bomb after Final Crisis, has screwed up time with his shit."

I deliberately left this line out of my write up because 1) it's only implied, and 2) it's not an intentional action on Eobard's part. He's got more then enough crimes to qualify him without having to list things that he is only hinted at having done, and at having done accidentally at that.

I also think that this line:

"Not out of sadism, conquest, or lust for destruction, but because he's a selfish man who plans to get what he wants at the expense of everyone else."

is problematic. While I completely understand the point it is trying to make, the net effect of it is to make Eobard sound less heinous by reminding us that there are omnicidal maniacs, and For the Evulz types out there. I think that highlighting his utter selfishness is fine (it's why I did it in my own write up) but that comparing him to (unnamed) sadists and world killers, is rather pointless.

RE: Stevarino

I am going to say no to that example. It just doesn't sound heinous enough, it's from a show that is Played for Laughs most of the time, and may therefore be failed comedy rather then something we are supposed to take seriously, and Laculus raises valid questions about Freudian Excuse.

edited 30th Apr '13 9:12:33 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

How's this?

• The Barry Allen Flash's Arch-Nemesis is Eobard Thawne, the Reverse Flash. An obsessive fan of Barry, Eobard managed to duplicate Barry's powers. He then attempted to replace Barry, before stalking, and apparently murdering his wife, Iris Allen, when she rejected his advances. Eventually he drives Barry to kill him to save his new fiancé before he can kill her. However, Thawne was resurrected years later, and has gone out of his way to cross every line he can find since. Using his time travel powers to edit his life, Thawne kills his brother (who he blamed for holding him back), his parents (who weren't supportive of his obsession with the Speed Force), a professional rival, and every man that a woman he is interested in has ever dated; he then traumatises her as a child when she still spurns him. He kills Johnny Quick shortly after his own resurrection, tries to force Barry Allen, newly returned to life, into becoming the Black Flash, and during the Flashpoint crossover, alters the time stream further and further to make Barry's life as miserable as possible. He has no Freudian Excuse or mitigating factor for these actions, but instead he's just a selfish man who plans to get what he wants at the expense of everyone else.

edited 30th Apr '13 9:47:16 AM by ACW

Pong Krell has already been added under a Clone Wars section on the Star Wars-page, good. And I'd still say that Keeper Arguss also counts. After some consideration I say pre Vizsla should be cut, because despite all his evil deeds he still has some honor and he genuinely believes he is helping his people. Still on the fence about Lok Durd though.

edited 30th Apr '13 10:11:47 AM by Forenperser

Sounds much better to me.

If no issues, I'll post tomorrow when I get home from work (around 6 PM ET).

It's not failed comedy, it is played seriously except for when he's juggling cat heads. I do wonder about his Freudian Excuse, and if planning to kill every cat in the city along with his good half is heinous enough. How much does animal cruelty weigh in anyway? Also, disqualifieng the tub just because it's a tub does not seem like a good reason. It did kill four people onscreen.

PS: I remember Ambar saying he was doubtful the creeper from Jeepers Creepers could qualify since we do not know what he is and he could be a demon (which is Madeof Evil), I do not think he is a demon though because in the first film, we see that his lair was in the basement of an abbandoned church. Demons can not enter churches because they can not walk on holy ground.

edited 30th Apr '13 2:05:43 PM by bobg

The lore changes depending on media, though. Not every demon is restricted from holy ground. The thing about the Creeper, though...it's sadistic. Wantonly sadistic. Like far beyond normal levels of sadism

Animal cruelty generally isn't a qualifier. Especially not if there is actual violence against people going on.

Re: Lok Durd: how high on the totem pole is he? He sounds very similar to Spandam, who was judged too much of a small-fry compared to the real bad guys of the World Government to qualify.

Keeper Agruss sounds like a keeper. As a sidenote, his entire species sounds horrible. Star Wars is usually pretty good about Always Chaotic Evil - we've had sympathetic Trandoshans, Yuuzhan Vong, Tuskens, Sith Purebloods, and even Hutts - but these guys sound like the absolute worst in the entire galaxy. Like the Belgian Congo or Antebellum South, but multiplied by an entire planet.

edited 30th Apr '13 3:42:24 PM by HamburgerTime

"Generally"? So, there ARE rare exceptions? He tortures, kills, and eats hundreds of cats and eventually decides to kill every single cat in the city. As for violence against actual people, he tries to kill Stan and the real Steve. His Freudian Excuse could possibly disqualify him though, especially when the real Steve is no where near cm territory.

I looked up Lok Durd. And I found out/remembered that he was ordered by Dooku to test the weapon on the Lurmen. So I think this is what really disqualifies him.

And he really doesn't stand out among his fellow Seperatists. We have Wat Tambor, who bombs Twi'Lek villages, we have Vice Roy Gunray who lies to Onaconda about giving his people vital supplies, we have Grievous and Ventress who backstab and murder several people etc

Pong Krell and Keeper Arguss are really the only 2 who stand out as particularly cruel I'd say (except for Sidious off course).

edited 30th Apr '13 4:03:52 PM by Forenperser

Honestly, I'll agree. Keep Arguss and Krell

We've never had an example based solely on animal cruelty. That leaves two attempted murders. I'm willing to be that there are villains on the show (even played for laughs ones) that have done worse. So no.

One thing about Arguss. If his whole species is horrible, does he still hold up?

Honestly, Star Wars' Always Chaotic Evil thing is more 'these guys that we see' are evil. Arguss is just the leader if a group of slavers who are demonstrated. I think we've seen other members of that race who aren't nutjobs

We've seen good Trandoshans, good hutts, etc. It's not a trope at play in Star Wars, not even with the Yuuzhan Vong until you get to species that're just insect hiveminds.