During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
"Come on Cohaagen, give these people some air." Yes to him.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
To Victoria, Dukhovich, Flavio, Wengler and Love.
@ ACW, I have read that book and I still think you can make a case for Hobgoblin, Hobgoblin is only a pawn in so far as Dr. Octopus to using him to test one of his nukes, Hobgoblin seems to have come up with this extortion scheme on his own and while Ock helps procure the materials he needs to make a nuke, Hobgoblin also engages in theft to get the materials as well. Now Hobgoblin may have intended to just take the money and run if he got paid, but as soon as Venom, Spidey and that alien creature show up and start to ruin his plans, Hobgoblin tries to set off the device out of spite, negating his original intentions, which were not noble to begin with. Deakins from Broken Arrow originally wanted to just black mail the US government with his stolen nuke, but when his original plans were foiled, he tried to set off the nuke out of spite, that is what makes him a monster.
I think Hobgoblin is independent enough from Ock and is aiming for a big enough body count and has far less resources then Ock, that makes him worth a shot.
@ nrjxll, I have talked with some people on PM, I think there may be lots of Star Trek novel villains who can count. I don't think Star Trek has gotten the same attention on this thread as say Dr. Who or Star Wars has, so I think there may be some more Star Trek candidates out there.
edited 2nd Sep '17 12:39:12 PM by Overlord
Here's the caption for Grings Kodai's picture in the Pokemon CM page:
"Stop right there, Zoroark! One step closer and this little one is no more."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Eh, maybe. Honestly, I'm also kinda lazy 
. If you still have the book, you can have him.
Zarm looks good.
For Rita, I took care of it. I changed the last sentence to "Rita, in a shocking contrast to the campy nature of her original iteration, brings a level of incredible seriousness to this otherwise lighthearted and fun film and is ultimately nothing less than a psychotic, murderous monster."
For the Wereworld examples, please add them to the Drafts. I know Vala goes before Deadeye; I don't know how you want Lucas and Vincent.
I like the caption for Grings. If no objections, I'll request adding that and the quote tomorrow.
edited 2nd Sep '17 12:49:41 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'd rather we have no more modifications to Rita. Submit the entry as I put it on the drafts (that's including both the edits of me and HP) unless there's a rather prominent error, typo, or sinkhole. I'll put the other Wereworld entries in.
edited 2nd Sep '17 12:49:36 PM by Scraggle
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright, I did that with Rita. The only change I made was change it from "callously (temporarily) kills Billy" to "callously kills Billy (temporarily)"
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@ ACW, well I am not sure I still have that novel. I am also busy with some other novels at the moment, I am reading a Hulk novel with an interesting candiate, a character with horrorfic actions, with a good FE, so he could be interesting to discuss. After that, I have another Marvel Novel snd some Star Trek novels I want to tackle.
Proposed rewrite for Gihren:
- Prince Gihren Zabi is the eldest child and de facto dictator of his family’s nation, the Principality of Zeon and the monstrous Big Bad of the anime. Believing that Despotism Justifies the Means, Gihren throws away the lives of his soldiers and family members so that he can conquer Earth for himself. When his own younger brother is killed, Gihren selfishly turns the funeral into a political rally to consolidate his own power while the rest of his family looks on in horror. A wanton war criminal, Gihren preaches a Master Race philosophy to manipulate his space-born people to look down upon Earth-borns, uses a Colony Drop to eliminate an enemy base and destroying much of the continent of Australia. His own father becomes so disgusted with him that he compares him to Adolf Hitler, a comment Gihren takes as a compliment. Fearing an armistice would stop him from gaining ultimate power over the people of Zeon and Earth, Gihren has a super weapon fire upon ships containing his father and the leader of the Earth’s military. When confronted by his sister about his patricide, Gihren smugly admits to doing so, before turning his attention back to the war. Had he won, Gihren states he would have reduced the Earth’s population to under one billion, ensuring they would never have the strength to stand against him. The Greater-Scope Villain to multiple side-stories, in one Gihren plots false assassination attempts on himself, framing his rival sister and using the publicity to garner support for himself. Stringing along a Zeon detective to follow the plot, Gihren eventually kills the man’s family when he is no longer needed.
edited 3rd Sep '17 2:41:05 PM by 43110
Caesar
If no one minds, I'd happily take a look at that Hobgoblin story and maybe propose him once I get my hands on it.
Aaaaaaaaaaanywho, yet another candidate for us this fine evening....gotta make this one quick, I'm currently hiding out in a bathroom from my gathered Labor Day family celebrations. Hopefully they think I'm just reading or something. >_>
What's the work?
Every self-respecting literature fan has heard of Sherlock Holmes, the world's greatest detective! Aided by his young ward Dr. John Watson, Holmes lives in London in the late 1800s using his hyper detective skills to solve only the most challenging of murders, mayhem, and tomfoolery his city has to offer.
Now, even today, decades after the original creator Doyle has passed on, Holmes features in many stories as a public domain character. However, in this special case? We're talking a novel that has gotten the "official" stamp from the Conan Doyle Estate, thus making it as canon in the Holmes mythos as Doyle's original tales.
The novel in question? The House of Silk by Anthony Horowitz.
Who is he?
Reverend Charles Fitzsimmons is the Big Bad of the novel. Using his position as headmaster of the Chorley Grange School for Boys, Fitzsimmons hides the truth that he is the head of the titular House of Silk, a secret organization of criminal conspiracy and all sorts of depravity....
What has he done?
The criminal conspiracy surrounding the House of Silk first comes to the attention of our astute detective Sherlock Holmes and his humble assistant John Watson when they begin investigating a strange murder case.
During this case, the man who is later revealed to be the killer, one Edmund Carstairs, was spotted by a young homeless child by the name of Ross Dixon, who recognized him. Ross later came to Edmund and tried to blackmail him for money to feed himself on the street.
Edmund freaked out, and informed his buddy Fitzsimmons of the occurence, to which Fitzsimmons promptly assured Edmund he would deal with it, which he did.
Fitzsimmons sends two vicious thugs to hunt down Ross, then brutally torture the 13 year old by breaking his fingers, legs, and ribs one at a time before slashing his throat. They then tied a string of white silk onto the boy's wrist to serve as a warning to any who knew of the House of Silk of what happens to those who cross them.
When approached by Holmes and Watson for information on the young Ross, who at point had stayed at Fitzsimmons' home for boys, Fitzsimmons and his wife proclaim they haven't seen the boy recently and that he ran away from the home some months ago.
Learning that Holmes isn't dropping the case, Fitzsimmons concocts a new plan. Luring Holmes to a drug dealing operation under the House of Silk's control, Fitzsimmons simultaneously brings Ross' 16 year old sister to the location.
Fitzsimmons then has the girl shot dead, at which point he has Holmes drugged and a gun placed in his hand, successfully framing him by having blackmailed some upstanding citizens into testifying against him.
Later trying to have Holmes killed inside the jail he is being held, Fitzsimmons' plan is ruined when Holmes escapes, at which point Fitzsimmons creates a new trap to lure Holmes and Watson into, where he has his two vicious thugs try to murder the duo.
Holmes and Watson, alongside their detective friend Lestrade, outwit and bring down the thugs, then head to Fitzsimmons' School for Boys, where Holmes brings the horrifying truth to light.
Turns out, Fitzsimmons uses his position as headmaster of the School for Boys to sell the young boys there for sex to the wealthy and powerful, pocketing the cash and keeping the 30+ victims in line under threat of torture and death. Ross was one such victim, and had fled the school until Edmund brought his location to Fitzsimmons, thus allowing Fitzsimmons to silence the boy for good while reassuring the other boys of what would happen to them if they spoke out of turn.
As Fitzsimmons' operation is busted, he is arrested and confronted by Holmes. Fitzsimmons cheerily admits his crimes, proclaiming he has done nothing wrong except provide something the wealthy want at a reasonable price and that the boys under his thumb should be appreciative for the good and clothing he gives them in exchange for their bodies.
Fitzsimmons happily informs Holmes that he started the House of Silk and has ran it of his own free will, then points out that he took scandalous pictures of his "clients" doing the deed with the boys, and, seeing as many of his clients were powerful people, he will never be truly prosecuted due to his friends in high places.
Fitzsimmons is right, of course. He never gets prosecuted.....because he mysteriously trips down a flight of stairs while in prison awaiting his trial. Strange thing, that.....
The House of Silk is utterly disbanded, and Watson, though recounting the story in one of his classic Holmes' tales, locks it in a safe and leaves a note that the story is only to be published at the least one hundred years after he has written it, as if it came out in the present, it would cause innumerable amounts of panic and chaos throughout London.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Absolutely none. Fitzsimmons is just a smug, vile excuse for a human who uses his position as a Reverend and headmaster to take advantage of orphans and homeless boys.
He has a wife, but he shows no real care for her. He puts on an act when in public, but we see no actual signs of love between them.
He does note that torturing and killing Ross was an "unfortunate and necessary" bit of business, but this is complete BS, as he is recounting the whole of his crimes witha smile on his face and I don't think torturing the kid was "necessary."
Finally, he notes that he hasn't done really much wrong. Just given the chidlren he takes care of an opportunity to pay him back for his kindness while supplying some wealthy folks some entertainment for their desires.
Uuuuurrrggggg.....
Heinousness?
Now, it wouldn't be a Sherlock Holmes story without a murder or two! Heck, the secondary antagonist in this novel kills her mother-in-law, poisons her sister-in-law to the point of catatonia in an attempt on her life, and plans to kill her husband.
But....even with that in mind, and all the other villains from Doyle's canon which this takes place in? Fitzsimmons is the worst of the lot. By, like, alot.
No other Holmes villain gets up to this level of child abuse and murder. Child murder itself is rare. Torturing a kid beforehand, and running a mass child prostitution racket? Unheard of.
I mean, for what it's worth? The Napoleon of Crime, Moriarty himself, assists Holmes in taking down Fitzsimmons because he is appaled by his actions. Eeesh.
Final Verdict?
Methinks a Keep.
I'll never look at Leopold and Jemma the same again....
edited 2nd Sep '17 3:08:27 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Fitzsimmons
Oh, I'd read House of Silk. Yeah, I think Fitzsimmons keeps.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Fitzsimmons.
Fitzsimmons
A bit late to King Dolseum and a definite to Reverend Charles Fitzsimmons.
I think I'll abstain on Flavio.
Fitzsimmons. Its really saying something if Moriarty is disgusted by you.
Yeah, it seems Sherlock Holmes monsters tend to come in two flavours; Moriarity, and worse than Moriarity. We've got Sherlock and A Game of Shadows in terms of the former for incarnations of Moriarity, but we've also got Taher and now Fitzsimmons in terms of "villains so bad even Moriarity actively tries to stop them." And honestly, I can't blame them... when we've got one of these villains trying to drive all humanity to insanity and death via the Elder Gods and another one is pimping out little boys, I think I'd reconsider my place on the Evil Totem Pole too.
edited 2nd Sep '17 4:00:28 PM by Scraggle
And Fitzsimmons is a yes. Did you know I once saw a weird Holmes play where the Big Bad was Watson, trying to kill Holmes for not being as appreciated as him? I didn't like it very much.
...wow. Respect to the original characterization of Doyle's stories? Pssh, what's that?
Honestly, though, given just how much Sherlock Holmes media there is, it really would not surprise me if there are boatloads more potential keeps waiting for us. That Soleil comic giving us no less than four on its own was surprising... I may have to dig a little deeper.
It was at a really prestigious theatre where I've seen genuinely classy stuff like Cabaret and Sweeney Todd, too; no idea how this thing made the cut.
to Fitzsimmons.
Fitzsimmons.
Love. Only one thing: Zorro was the one who overheated and blew up the boiler, not Love.
Right now, I'm waiting for the discussion on Game of Thrones.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Fizzysimmons.
About Rita, I dunno if we should say she used to be noble, since we don't see her doing anything other than evil. A Fallen Hero, yes - Ah, forget it, I'm just being facetious.
Zarm looks great. Scraggle comes through again! I do enjoy making write ups. My personal favourite was for Injustice!Brainiac - with special thanks to Very Melon and ACW for the first sentence. I feel that has my best summation of a villain's actions and getting across just how bad they are. Not to blow my own guitar too much.
As for the Super Sentai heinous standard, I would kind of like the series to be considered separate, at least prior to Gokaiger. See, prior to Gokaiger, all Sentai seasons were standalone, with the crossover movies being in their own continuity. Then Gokaiger was very popular, and so the Shared Universe has been carried on. Now, I don't have any official sources, this is second hand information from other fans, including on This Very Wiki. Even so, each season is still its own entity, with its own tone, stakes and values on what is truly vile with continuity being a very small part of each season. It's not like Power Rangers, which has always been a single universe - save RPM and the 2017 film, of course.
So, my question to you all: how should we measure the heinousness of Super Sentai? Do we lump all 40+ of them together, separate them by season or do something in between?
I'd recommend treating them separately. I mean, outside the colossal headache that would ensue from trying to compare the standard of over forty seasons together, if they were all standalone beforehand and can be treated as standalone series with independent standards? I'd keep it that way.
I agree with treating each season of Super Sentai separately. Unlike Power Rangers, which started with a six season story arc and has nearly every season clearly in the same continuity, Sentai is far more ambiguous, and even if there's a shared universe, every season is firmly standalone except for Sun Vulcan, a sequel to Denziman, and Gokaiger, which is a massive crossover. There are occasional references here and there, but they didn't incorporate notable crossover cameos into the actual shows (other than Gokaiger, for obvious reasons) until Ninninger, the 39th season of a show currently in its 41st.
In short: Each season should have its own heinous standard, with the exceptions of the intertwined Denziman and Sun Vulcan - not that I think anyone from those seasons qualify; just that they should be the exception on the off chance someone does propose someone from one of those two seasons.
As for Ryuya? I don't believe self-preservation is a valid excuse for attempting to sacrifice an untold number of people in the distant past. I don't care if he stays or goes considering that he isn't outed as an actual villain until he's mortally wounded, but I don't see a Freudian Excuse in Ryuya.
I like it.