During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I was around for the original discussion of that one. A very divisive candidate, as you can imagine.
Like reflections in the glass!
I'm gonna say K-On!
wait,a re we talking about works that have CM candidates?
edited 28th Jun '17 6:36:16 PM by MorningStar1337
Most surprised to have a complete monster? I would have to say Adventure Time, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, or Lab Rats.
Yes. Not potential candidates: actual classified CM villains in this wiki.
Honestly... most family-friendly oriented cartoons would qualify. However, there is some sense in the ones we have already written here: they come from action-adventure oriented shows (Powerpuff Girls, Adventure Time) or horror/mystery (Courage the Cowardly Dog, Over the Garden Wall).
The day we find a CM in stuff like SpongeBob will be a day to remember .
@Scraggle Two-week rule.
I guess Wild Wild West I'm most surprised because the movie is goofy as shit and that extends to Loveless as well.
I remember that it was initially difficult to convince people that Red Vs Blue had any candidates because of its initial tone.
edited 28th Jun '17 7:48:26 PM by SatoshiBakura
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
No, the discussion for that has long elapsed. The comic's been available since March.
Lizzid people!
Sonic SATAM. I was mostly familiar with Robotnik's humorous personality, so much so, I was genuinely surprised that there was a pure evil incarnation of Robotnik that lacked the usual sense of humor. But at the same time, I felt a little disappointed. I mean, I love the doctor's comedic personality that much, that this kind of comes off as jarring.
Given I had already seen the series, and discussed it extensively with Scraggle, I am fine with Bill Cipher counting. I mean had I not have been remotely familiar with the show, I would've thought that there would be no way in Hell that Cipher would ever qualify. But then came the Weirdmageddon arc, and I was proven wrong. Mostly I would've said no because I thought he was too comedic in some respect; I found myself laughing with Bill than being genuinely intimidated by him.
Lastly is of course Lotso. I mean, his name is "Lots O' Huggin Bear." That is simply a very ridiculous name that I thought would cause someone to get laughed off the forum.
edited 28th Jun '17 7:57:39 PM by AustinDR
Yeah I was pretty surprised The Powerpuff Girls had a CM too. Much less the CM be a one shot character. All of the villains basically had some comedic quirk to them that made them Played for Laughs, even HIM. But Dick in his single episode was played serious the whole time and thoroughly heinous despite being a powerless human with little to no resources.
Lizzid people!
For a more personal example, there's two. When I went to see Lights Out, I had assumed that they were going to play Diana for sympathy only to then tear that down by showing that she was an Enfant Terrible even before her transformation into a half-demon. And then there's Ge Quian Hu. I went into Monster Hunt not expecting much. I mean it's an action comedy about a man getting pregnant, so of course I didn't have any high hopes for that. And then I saw that Hu was a hypocritical monster who was trying to create a war to commit mass genocide on the monsters.
Considering it started out as an incredibly basic browser based MMO filled with cheesy British humor and mocking of fantasy tropes, I'm still surprised RuneScape wound up having such a huge roster of candidates, let alone having the most from a single video game.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Most surprising one for me was Ajax. Went into Deadpool not expecting a CM, but ended up getting one.
"No running in the halls!"
Yeah Deadpool was also the one I'm most surprised on getting a CM.
Though that might change if South Park manages to get one (Yes I'm still waiting for that to happen even if its feeble)
edited 28th Jun '17 8:39:12 PM by G-Editor
@Scraggle Oh... I did not know that. I removed it from the Discussion Dates page.
How about Thrax in Osmosis Jones? Yeah, he's disturbing though.
edited 28th Jun '17 9:07:04 PM by futuremoviewriter
Alrighty, one comic example for tonight...will have a comic proposal, a Punisher proposal, another fantasy film villain, and trio of Italian film villains up pretty soon....stay tuned.
Anyways...the Baltimore comics by Mike Mignola just came to a definitive ending. For those who don't know, Baltimore concerns young Lord Henry Baltimore in the thick of the front at an Alternate History World War 1...grievously wounded, Baltimore loses consciousness...and awakens to find horrific, batlike monstrosities devouring the dead and dying. One comes for him and Baltimore fights back, taking the beast's eye. The foul monsters retreat and Baltimore is found by the English, brought to a field hospital. And that night, he is visited by a mysterious, pale man missing an eye who informs him he has made a horrible mistake. "We were content to prey upon the dead and dying. But it was you who made it a war between us. Remember that." Soon after, a mysterious plague spreads, known as the Red Death. Those who die rise again.
And Baltimore has been chosen by a higher power. His wife and parents are among the victims and he is forced to destroy them. Over time, he becomes a warrior for a power he doesn't understand, driven to destroy his enemy, the vampire king Haigus. Finally, he succeeds, but Haigus is only a follower of the true enemy, the Red King, an Eldritch Abomination who has barely been aware of Baltimore himself. Until now...
Without further adieu...the ultimate Big Bad of Baltimore.
Who Is He? And What's He Done?
The Red King, the embodiment of the Red Death, the master of the plague. Long ago, in the void, the Red King was the eldest and mightiest of the beings who came into existence, and set up his dominion over them. Over time, the earth formed, and the young human races. The Red King was the progenitor of all monsters there, allowing them to run rampant over the earth as the Red King gloried in human sacrifice and bloodshed. Over time, the humans rose up to overthrow his servants. The surviving monsters hid beneath the earth, sleeping until roused by the wars of mankind...and when they regained their minds, driven to restore the Red King himself
The Red King? Desires to come the human realm and plunge it into chaos and destruction where he will be worshipped as a god of evil for all eternity, where all that remain all his followers and humanity is utterly purged or driven to endless madness. Through Haigus, the Red King unleashes the Plague upon Europe, killing tens of thousands at the least, all infected rising again as monstrous undead beings. Through his directives, his followers kill people by the truckload. After Haigus's death, Baltimore and his companions battle the Red King's minions, led by Madam Blavatsky who is known as the Blood Red Witch. Baltimore's greatest friend, Thomas Childress is murdered and his corpse taken. Later used as the vessel for the Red King to manifest in the world.
Though now on Earth, the Red King's power is immensely dampened due to coming to Earth too quickly, however he still manages to gather thousands of people to his cult and, using them, create the "Red Kingdom", a slowly spreading empire of his worshipers who torture and slaughter all those who resist his rule by the thousands. The Red King is furious, trapped in human flesh now., and cut off from his immense power. The Red King's forces spread steadily, rampaging over entire nations while entire populations are butchered by his followers.
The Red King also takes to mass-murdering people in his own rituals, attempting to contact the other elder gods to reestablish their way of things and he's really, REALLY annoyed they keep ignoring him as he's now stuck in a human body. The Red King finally gets what he thinks to be his chance to regain his glorious power by participating in a blood coronation that will "crown" him with his power once more. Oh, and it requires a lot of horrible bloodshed
Baltimore and friends interrupt and prevent the Red King from achieving his old power in the ceremony and he flies into a blind fury and murders the Blood Red Witch for one-too-many failures...before he and Baltimore have their fated duel at last, all the while mocking him about his lot in life and the fact that he's being forced to fight his "friend" Thomas. The Red King strikes Baltimore down...only for Baltimore to surge forward and impale the Red King, who is mortal thanks to being trapped in Thomas's body. Thomas manages to regain his mind, bidding a final goodbye to Baltimore, before Baltimore demands his reward....as a result? all the wounds Baltimore had taken in the past return and he collapses, seeing his beloved wife waiting for him as he dies once and for all. "As long as the Red King reigns, there must always be Lord Baltimore" indeed.
Heinous Standard?
By and far the single source of all the evil in the story. The Red King obliterates the heinous standard here. Pass, pass, easy pass.
Moral Agency?
Okay, for the ultimate embodiment of the plague, a God of Evil and an Eldritch Abomination? He...has it. He demonstrates completely a humanlike mindset and indicates he does everything because he chooses to, while the other gods can choose their own natures and just ignore him. They were born long ago of unknown means and he's merely the oldest and nastiest.
Furthermore, when he possessed Thomas Childress, he gained all of Thomas's memories, morals, and emotions....and despised them utterly, and has actively worked since then to rid himself of them, loathing humanity completely.
Redeeming Qualities?
Zilch. His only relationship with his fellow dark deities is ruling them. He cares nothing for all his minions, sacrificing, abusing or killing them at a whim.
conclusion?
The ultimate villain of Baltimore and one of the most monstrous villains of this type I've proposed. One of the most twisted and humanlike examples of an Eldritch Abomination monstrosity I've ever seen.
Yeah, yes to the Red King. Been waiting for this one.
Yes to the Red King. And I'm... curious about the Punisher proposal. Could be way off base, but of the few stories I've read I remember stumbling across a guy who I thought came off as nasty, but didn't propose due to a mix of me not being super familiar with the overall heinous standard and not remembering every detail of said story. Would be amusing if it turns out to be the very guy I ended up passing over one day.
edited 28th Jun '17 9:32:24 PM by FriedWarthog
The ones Lighty'll be proposing are from the MAX one-shot Naked Kills. I've read it and the villains there breach the standard even for the MAX universe. The main bad guy there is Mickey Fane. Ring any bells?
edited 28th Jun '17 9:33:24 PM by Scraggle
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Red King.
I'll do that one right now...
The story is called "Naked Kill", in Punisher Max. Frank is at his normal evening, clearing out a den of scumbags trafficking in torture porn. One mook begs for his life, revealing he knows where they make the tapes. It turns out the man behind it is the head of Daedalus corporation, at Daedalus tower, whose owner sells security systems all over the world...with a nasty side business. This is, in fact, a trio of villains.
Who Are They?
Mickey Fane is the company head of Daedalus, a brilliant designer of security systems, who has Daedalus Tower locked down tight. Any breach? Well, you better get to your safety pods within a few minutes since an armed team will sweep through and kill everything there...
Polly Hu, Mickey's partner and lover, a 'director' who advises Mickey, procures the girls and directs the films.
The film's 'star', Mickey's nephew Eleventhree...for his, ahem, length and girth before he even gets 'excited'...a mountain of a man often dressed in a creepy mask who...well, I'll detail.
What Do they Do?
they regular traffic in girls from Russia, Asia, Eastern Europe...girls nobody misses, who are brought over and used in rough pornography...for a few weeks. At the month's end, a new shipment arrives while Mickey and Polly bring in, ahem, 'special' crews. The girls are forced to torture and kill eachother with the promise of the one survivor going three...except the winner has to make a special film with Eleventhree. In fact, it's a snuff film where he simply rapes his co-star to death. And this is in addition to the genuine torture porn they make. The comic opens with the crew Frank hits watching one of Eleventhree's videos.
Frank manages to sneak into Daedalus where Mickey is showing off his security system to new clients, before he hits floor eight. In his office, Mickey and Polly are discussing business when she inquires about a girl she showed him in a catalog from Ukraine...before having a blond virgin girl brought in, very unwillingly, to which Mickey grins and comments "such a shame to be uneducated on life's greatest pleasure. Let's see what we can do to enlighten you."
Polly is then seen with a young woman on the film set as the girl begs not to do the movie. Polly informs her she doesn't want to make her mad because then what happened to "the other girl" may happen to her. Polly promises her co-star is a 'real man'...and cue Eleventhree. When we next see the place, Eleventhree is being washed down by unwilling girls as a body bag is taken out with a huge pool of blood on the bed.
Polly then gets another girl in for Eleventhree, who is seen boasting for the cameras he's "the fucking man" before Frank intervenes and begins gunning down everyone in the room except the women. Mickey...promptly abandons Polly and his nephew to activate the security protocol. Frank shoots out Eleventhree's leg and the women proceed to beat him to death themselves. Polly the tries to shoot Frank, ranting how he's ruining her art, before Frank blasts her with a shotgun, shattering the 'shatter resistant' window...with little time, Frnak and the girls tie all the corpses together and use them as a sort of macabre ladder...oh, Polly is still alive, until a girl stabs her in the eye with a large pin.
Frank drops the girls off at a clinic...and the last shot of the comic is Mickey in his office, being informed the cleaning man has arrived, with Frank opening the door, with one final thought caption: "Showtime."
Heinous Standard?
Even for the fucking dark as pitch world of MAX...I think they stand out. It's a frighteningly unique series of crimes, with the torture-snuff ring, easily comparable to the Bulats, with a massive body count, rape, torture and Eleventhree's...rather twisted activity.
Mitigating Qualities?
None for Eleventhree. Polly and Mickey get on and seem to care for one another, but...when the chips are down, Mickey screams at her, calling her a 'stupid cunt' and abandons her to die while Polly screams insults right back at him...Mickey does comment later that he "misses her" but overall, I don't buy real affection. The two are depraved sociopaths with a similar interest who like fucking eachother, raping others and killing people horribly in snuff films. Eleventhree has no bond with anyone else, and is just obsessed with showing he's awesome via raping women to death. I'd say the whole trio passes this little test.
Conclusion?
I'd give this sick little trio a keep. This is...unique, even by Punisher standards
Scraggle: Ha ha, ha ha... well I feel silly: I haven't read much from the MAX continuity. Went and assumed he was talking about 616!Punisher and well... kinda made an ass of myself.
I guess while I'm at it I'll just mention who it was: it was a one-shot villain who ran a military academy for young boys that seemed all fine and dandy on the outside... only for it to turn out that the guy moonlights as a kiddie porn filmmaker who exploits the boys that attend the academy by forcing them to be in his movies, allows the martial arts instructor to beat the shit out of them during training, and after ordering his young cadets to shoot at a rampaging punisher only for one to disobey his orders, tried to murder him before getting iced by good old Mr. Castle.
I dunno if anyone here knows which story I'm referring to, but eh. Again, I'm not familiar with the overall heinous standard for the Punisher as a whole, so for all I know crimes of that severity could be a lot more common. Plus, I don't even remember the guy's name so he may just be too small of a fry to count anyway. Plus, the only crime of his that really made him stand out was the whole "kiddie porn" thing.
And a hilariously easy yes to the Punisher MAX trio. They honestly kinda remind me of the Slaver Trio that are already listed on the Punisher page.
edited 28th Jun '17 9:57:38 PM by FriedWarthog
Bone Woman seems to have been placed with greatcoats. Also I updated Ra Sidh and fleshed out his crimes a little more (that he abandoned Set for being weak and signed on with a monstrous god, that he commits genocide on a scale that the amoral kings of Hyboria are rather appalled by)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
.... I had to look that up to make sure this wasn't a lie. That is shocking.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.