Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Ah, I missed that. It's now added to that post in my sig. I just sent a PM for Cyber XIII and Ekimmak. Here's a nice quote for Gargorgon: "Humans of Earth. Surrender immediately, and hand over the prince of Planet Gold. You have 44 minutes in Earth time to comply. Failure to do so will result in the petrification of all life on Earth's surface."

Clown Face brought up an interesting point a few posts back, Champ does worse things than Syura despite being less powerful, so why is Syura still considered a CM? Vargo Hoat from A Song Of Ice And Fire was recently deemed not to count because one of his henchmen surpasses him despite having less to work with, and one of the arguments made in favour of keeping him was he and Rorge are comparable to Syura and Champ respectively. Anyway I'm nominating Li, Genevieve Aristide and Blackbeard for removal.

Li's a similar case to Thanos, he might be worth keeping an eye on, but everything heinous he's done so far has been in tandem with the other two vampire lords, both of whom have worse crimes that are entirely their own. Also he has a possible redeeming quality according to the characters page. If he does get removed the bit about the Chastity test should be added to Ivanovic's entry, he's the only one of the three vampire lords that actually takes pleasure in it. Finally the top of the page could do with expansion, all it says at the moment is "Complete Monsters from Dance in the Vampire Bund".

Aristide was discussed previously due to having standards and not being as bad as another villain in the same series, but the debate just sort of trailed off.

Blackbeard isn't that much worse than Davy Jones (who killed numerous captives just because, one for refusing to join his crew, as well as being responsible for his crew suffering A Fate Worse Than Death), and not nearly as atrocious as Cutler Becket.

Finally Scraggle pointed out Saix is one of the worst members of Organization XIII, was he ever discussed?

edited 10th Dec '16 6:51:23 AM by CorrinLeoShipper

Syura is responsible for leading the Wild Hunt team. That means he's responsible for everything they do, Champ included, and at no point is Syura disgusted by what Champ does. If anything, Syura basically let Champ roam wild and rape/kill anyone he wanted to. Syura is also a Serial Killer and Serial Rapist; the only difference is he doesn't specifically target children. There's also the fact that he tortured Lubbock by crushing one of his testicles. He's staying.

Davy Jones has mitigating factors. Blackbeard does not. Blackbeard is also perfectly fine putting his daughter's life in danger, and even tried to sacrifice her at the Fountain of Youth. Putting one's own offspring in jeopardy makes them stand out compared to other villains, something Davy Jones doesn't do. He's staying.

edited 10th Dec '16 7:07:52 AM by Tyk5919

Director Kakuzawa. Li, Aristide and Blackbeard. I want to nominate Gerrith Barrington.

Who is he and what has he done?

Final Fantasy Tactics contains tons of power hungry aristocrats but Barrington is easily one of the most depraved. Several years ago he discovered two gifted siblings called Rapha and Malach and tried to get their village to hand them over to him, intent on using their rare skills to conquer Ivalice. The village refused to hand them over so he razed it and kidnapped Rapha and marach, claiming to have saved their lives. Malach trusted him and was raised to be a pawn, but Rapha was more wary of Barrington, proven right when he subjected her to horrific abuse, heavily implied to include rape. (notably, Rapha's 13 in the present day and might have been even younger when this started) She later makes an attempt to kill him, but fails because of an emotional breakdown. Barrington's response is gloating about her being too broken to ever harm him and trying to gun her down in cold blood, but her brother Malach, now aware of Barrington's true nature, takes the bullet for her. Shortly afterwards he gets killed by an assassin called Lettie.

Redeeming qualities?

Absolutely none.

Heinous Standard

During previous discussions it was pointed out that he's comparable to Craster, in while his sexual offences are offscreen, the plot deals with his victim's trauma, and the nature of his crimes puts him on par with the larger scale villains.

Final verdict

Massive .

That's not how the heinous standard works. It only applies to the franchise the villain is a part of. You can't compare someone from the Final Fantasy franchise with someone from Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire.

I still think Blackbeard should be removed, don't forget Davy Jones doesn't just kill people, he's also responsible for his crew suffering A Fate Worse Than Death, and he doesn't even come close to Becket's level. As for Syura, I wasn't actually advocating removing him, I was just asking a question. Finally Machinedramon still hasn't been added to the main page, even though I added him to the Sandbox twice.

I know that, but that comparison had made during previous debates on Barrington, and I was mainly using it as an analogy to explain why the Offscreen Villainy argument isn't valid. I'm sticking with for Blackbeard, and adding for Machinedramon.

edited 10th Dec '16 7:46:45 AM by WoebegoneLeptocephalus

That doesn't matter. You need to compare villains to other villains within the same franchise. How else would someone not familiar with a franchise know if there's a villain worse than the guy you're proposing?

Machinedramon is getting put up with this week's batch; that's why he hasn't gone up yet. You have to wait until around Sunday or so.

Please don't say to the same character twice. It briefly made me think that there was three votes against blackbeard when there was only two.

edited 10th Dec '16 8:08:59 AM by Awesomekid42

Atually, Li's not on the trope. He's the on ly one of the three Lords not to count right now, whereas Rozenmann and Ivanovic have their own entries.

I think we agreed to cut Aristide as well, so that's fine. However, Blackbeard should be kept. He's still heinous enough by the work's standards.

Now, for Syura? Champ is a rapist of children, but Syura is equally heinous: Syura releases the Wild hunt from prison and allows them to go wild on civilians, actively facilitating their crimes (Champ's included). He also gets up to a lot of crimes himself with his own rounds of torture, rape and murder. He's going nowhere.

And I believe we voted Berrington down due to too much Offscreen Villainy

Characters have to be compared to characters from their own series. This goes without saying. "No" on that proposal until the actual heinous bar is established.

Barrington's a pedophilic rapist that tries to kill his victim despite being fully aware she'll never be a threat to him, and his crimes are unique to him among all FF villains. I've got another villain to discuss. Her name is Mumtaz, and she is from a book called Sold.

Who is she and what does she do?

Mumtaz is a sadistic and greedy madam who runs a brothel called The Happiness House in an Indian red-light district. When the innocent, naïve thirteen year-old protagonist Lakshmi is tricked into going with a mysterious man from her Nepalese village down to India, she doesn't quite know what she's been signed up for until Mumtaz leads her to a room where a rather gross old man paid for her sexual services is lying in wait. Whenever she realizes what exactly is in store for her, she fights back when he makes an advance and runs away, only for Mumtaz to chase her down and lock her in a small room where she's starved and savagely beaten unless Lakshmi submits. She refuses, and this treatment goes on for about five days until Mumtaz gets fed up with waiting and drugs her up so she can make her "please" her customers.

There's also the fact that Mumtaz has Lakshmi and the other girls at the house up to their eyeballs in debt that she forces them to make up for with their services. But of course she has no intention of letting them go as long as they can make money for her, as she adds to their debt buy making them pay for condoms, medicine, and other things and basically keeps them stuck in their situation for good. There are a couple of workers there who are there of their own free will and can leave at any time, such as a sickly mother named Pushpa, though their situations aren't much better. For example: Pushpa works at the brothel so she can take care of her young son and infant daughter, and is constantly in agony due to her constant sickness. She needs a day off to rest that Mumtaz of course denies her, threatening to kick her family out onto the street if she does since that's a day where she isn't earning any money. And once Pushpa gets too sick to work any longer, Mumtaz makes good on her threat and orders her and her son to leave and never come back. She does offer to take care of her baby for her... though it's far from noble as she wants to make her a prostitute when she becomes old enough.

And then, there's another thing that I feel truly and irrevocably put her up in this status: the most horrifying fate she has in store for employees who try to escape or receive gifts from clients. For this punishment, she has the brothel's cook grind up chili-peppers into a spicy mixture that Mumtaz dips a stick into. She then takes it and shoves it up the vagina of whichever girl "needed to be taught a lesson." Thankfully, she ends up getting arrested as the girls from the brothel are saved after a successful police raid at the end of the book.

Is she heinous by the standards of the story?

Very much so. While other unpleasant characters are in the book such as the Lakshmi's greedy stepfather who sells her into prostitution and the guy who made the offer and took her down to India, Mumtaz eclipses them and everyone else in terms of heinousness.

Any Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Qualities?

None. She is incredibly cruel and savage towards the girls and is properly feared and loathed by the girls she has at the Happiness House. There IS a brief moment where Lakshmi feels that she loves her after being nursed back to health after being afflicted with a disease, but she was delirious and not in her right mind at the time, and she continues to fear her afterwards. Mumtaz does have one loyal worker who will rat out any of the girls who are trying anything funny, but she and Mumtaz don't have a good relationship or anything, she's more or less a crony of sorts and doesn't get a lot of characterization. And while she gives medicine to girls who are feeling sick and won't have them work if they contract HIV, it's Pragmatic Villainy as she doesn't want to lose customers and views these sick workers as being a hindrance to her business. And leaving the girls to die in the streets of a red light district in a country that isn't kind to prostitutes is hardly a redeeming quality either.

'The Verdict?

Easy

edited 10th Dec '16 8:33:45 AM by WoebegoneLeptocephalus

From what I gather Barrington wasn't really discussed in detail previously, and the Offscreen Villainy rule can have exceptions if the story shows the results thereof, for example Ratigan drowning orphans doesn't count because it's just mentioned once with no actual evidence to back it up, but in Barrington's case the plot deals with his victim's trauma. As for the heinous standard, Hashmal is responsible for a lot of the bloodshed throughout the game, and Dycedarg orchestrates a war, but looking at the effort post Barrington sounds equally heinous, albeit on a smaller scale.

You know, not too long ago, we agreed to cut Joseph Serumaga, the mass murdering pedophile warlord, because his crimes were too offscreen. I'm not seeing how Gerrith is any different.

Easy yea to Mumtaz. Sounds...dark

Did the series deal with the results of his crimes? Thinking about it I agree that Syura's just as bad as Champ, so with that said Vargo Hoat might be worth revisiting. As leader of his group, he oversees and encourages all their atrocities, letting them do whatever they want as long as he profits. He is depicted as a remorseless and foul-tempered traitor, mutilator, rapist, murderer, more than once referenced as a monster, and indirectly responsible for most of the actions that his men do, including Rorge.

Mumtaz is a definite .

edited 10th Dec '16 8:45:09 AM by CorrinLeoShipper

The problem is the heinous standard in ASOIAF

Is it any higher than AGK?

Yes, Joseph's Offscreen Villainy did affect the episode's present events. He was still voted down.

Also, A Song of Ice and Fire has a MUCH higher heinous standard than Akame ga Kill!.

edited 10th Dec '16 8:48:54 AM by Clown-Face

I think there's enough consensus to cut Manami Anzai. Shall I do so on the YMMV page?

mumtaz

@Lighty: So are half the villans from the novels Ravok effortposts.

Mumtaz.

Blackbeard stays. In addition to his deeds, he stands out from Davy and Beckett in that he is a horrible father.

Ooh, I've read Sold so I can definitely vouch for Mumtaz, so yes to her. She's what I like to call a Ravok-tier villain due to how fucked up her crimes against children are. :p

Believe it or not, Sold was required reading for my English class during my Senior year in high school. If my memory on the book was fresher, I'd definitely have proposed her myself since she's easily among the most loathsome villains I've seen in any form of media.