During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
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to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
You will recall I brought up Zouken Matou from Fate Stay Night a while back. However, despite the heinousness of his actions, he gets one sympathetic moment before his death, where he recalls his original reason for pursuing the Holy Grail. He wanted to honour the sacrifice of the woman he loved, Justeaze, whose body was used to create the Holy Grail. Remembering that, he finally decides to let go of this world accepting his wish is at an end. This might fall into 99,9999999% monster territory. Opinions?
edited 3rd Dec '12 12:21:26 PM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
As far as I know, though, that's not present in Fate/Zero where the anime and manga example is. That said, Zouken appears to have suffered Motive Decay where he eventually became self absorbed and abandoned once potentially sympathetic goals for selfishness much like Orochimaru and Tobi from Naruto
He doesn't have enough screentime in Fate/Zero to qualify, and while raping Sakura and torturing Kariya are horrible, he falls short of Caster's massive child slaughter.
edited 3rd Dec '12 12:52:51 PM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
He makes very good use of the screentime he has. I'm not sure how much more heinous you get than 'have little girl raped by worms.'From what I recall of the anime, Caster slaughtered one child onscreen. Ryuunosuke was going to do so with (many) others, but Rin saved them. I believe they killed others offscreen, but I only recall the one onscreen, please remind me if I'm wrong.
I don't really have a problem with both Caster and Zouken qualifying. One is a mass murdering psychotic who kills kids and innocents, the other is a heartless manipulator who has Sakura raped by worms, manipulates Kariya into being a vessel, rubs the former in his face and uses the poor guy as a disposable puppet.
Checking the Type-Moon wiki, it says Zouken ended up forgetting his original intentions and bcame corrupted. If we disqualify him, I don't see how Caster himself can qualify as in life he was indicated to be a loyal ally of Jean D'arc and still wanted to see her again
In skimming through A Thousand Splendid Suns as well, I realized I mixed up Rasheed with the father from The Kite Runner. Yeah, go ahead and keep and elaborate on how he treats his enitre family contemptibly, and only shows affection/spoiling to one son only to keep up appearances.
EDIT: The Kite Runner really isn't namespaced? Huh.
edited 3rd Dec '12 2:01:58 PM by LargoQuagmire
He appears in two episodes and has maybe 20 minutes of screen time in total. And while Zouken's actions may look more horrifying, Caster gathering children (we see him saying he will commit a grave act when he's picked up the kids and then Rider comments on it when they find their remains and blood in his lair), slaughtering them (Rin's addirion is only in the anime, not the novel, and even then he had killed more of them) and then unleashing a gargantuan monster intent on killing as many people as possible sets the bar too high for FZ Zouken who tortures two people.
It is dubious whether Caster qualifies as far as sympathetic qualities go, but he does set the heinous meter by having the highest body count and intent on killing most people.
edited 3rd Dec '12 2:16:26 PM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Bodycount isn't the only thing I consider in the heinous standard. You can have two monsters with one focusing on killing and the other being a rapist or psychological torturer. If 'having a high bodycount' is the sole factor, then Kirei Kotomine is the undisputed king monster because there are far more deaths on his hands than Caster ever achieves. Not to say Kirei is a CM. He is resoundingly not.
Is killing people for sadistic desires worse than having a little girl raped continuously by worms and then torturing and manipulating someone who tries to save her? I refuse to speculate. I lean towards both being insanely heinous in their own ways. Different ways, but both awfully heinous.
Limited screentime isn't much a factor for me if they use that time very well to be heinous and revolting and evil. Zouken does that.
Stick of the Fallen
Checking some other pages:
- Monster.Dragon Ball
- Taopaipai is said to having redeeming qualities in an edit under him. Cut?
- The Alternate Timeline Androids 17 and 18 don't count, because it says that their brains were rewired so that they'd be evil.
- Monster.Fairy Tail
- Raven Tail should go, as groups don't count.
Were 17 and 18 'hardwired' to be evil in the alternate timeline? I don't recall that.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's from a video game made years after the show he's actually in. It would a retcon if it did imply that he had good qualities, and it doesn't imply that because the game basically ignores the whole "only good people were resurrected by the Dragonballs" business. Taopaipai should not be cut, but that line should be. It just confuses an otherwise straightforward issue.
If the two androids were rewired to be monsters, yes they ought to be axed. No free will =/= CM
I think the DBZ page in general, however, could use a clean up. I'm not sure that the actions of character like Dr. Gero, Babidi, etc, can even come close to stacking with those of Frieza, Cell, or Buu. I've got no problem keeping say, Taopaipai, since he's from Dragonball proper, and Frieza et al had not yet arrived when he showed up. Anyone who arrives after Frieza crashes the party though? I don't know.
Also, a question about Cell, because I haven't seen enough of the show to judge—does he have free will? I seem to recall his being built to be the ultimate killing machine. If murder is engineered in, does he really have a choice?
edited 3rd Dec '12 3:10:52 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Foreign Troper
Dragon Ball online isn't canon. So according to the series, he count's I'd say. Also, why has Van Zant been cut?
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
If you run a search of the forum you should be able to find out. I don't recall myself, though it's probably because he didn't stack with one of the other villains.
EDIT: The Van Zant discussion begins right here. He was axed for not being on the scale of the DBZ villains, or even other human antagonists like Taopaipai.
edited 3rd Dec '12 3:14:44 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I was there when we discussed it. We have unpleasant bastards such as Cell and Freiza, and Van Zant at best kicked a few dogs. We are looking for heinous by the standards of a given work, so going by that, he falls short.
edited 3rd Dec '12 3:19:26 PM by EarlOfSandvich
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
There's no indication Cell lacks free will, really. If Android 16, a full machine, could choose his own path? Cell is left messages by Gero as to "Okay, here's what you gotta do for ultimate power," but he's not hardwired for it. He seems to really enjoy it, too.
While I await more opinions on the Justified examples, I thought I'd slap down this example from the Gundam subpage. It's a lot more ambiguous then some of the ones I've brought over from there in the past, but I thought it might be worth discussing anyway.
- Arthur Goodman of A-LAWS is also quite the monster, but he's not as Ax-Crazy as Ali nor can he hold a candle to Ribbons' A God Am I motivations. He is responsible for most of the A-LAWS' more brutal tactics throughout season 2, such as the firing of the Kill Sat mentioned above and then using it to destroy an orbital elevator (or rather severely damages it) just to get a group of individuals who opposed A-LAWS, killing almost everyone on it (some 60,000 civilians).
Anyway, Goodman's obviously much closer to the trope then previous examples like Katejina are, which is why I've left him alone that long. Problem is, he's the third character from Gundam 00 to be listed, and I'm not sure if he stacks with Ali Al-Saachez and Ribbons Almark. Unlike Ali, who personally wiped out an entire country with just his Arche Gundam, or Ribbons, who is responsible for creating their entire plan in the first place, Goodman is just a cog in a very evil machine. He doesn't kill people himself the way Ali does, nor does he conceive of horrific orders the way Ribbons does. Instead he's a middleman who relays Ribbons' instructions to the troops.
I'm not saying Goodman isn't a horrible excuse for a human being, because he is. In fact, he's downright revolting. But I'm not sure he can add up to the other two. If anyone wants a full list of his crimes it can be found here at the Gundam wiki. If you want to compare him to Ali and Ribbons, their respective entries can be found here and here.
Yeah, I'd say to cut Goodman. He's not near to the standard of Ali and Ribbons
@Ambar: I agree with cutting those Justified examples, and axing Goodman from the Gundam page.
Re Dragon Ball: 17 and 18 were originally two human teenagers forcibly turned into robots. I don't know how much the process altered their personalities, but I'm leaning towards cut. Cell, despite being a robot, does seem to have freewill and is a sadist so I'd be okay with keeping him.
@5309: Yes, Raven Tail should be cut for being a group. It also sounds like the fail the heinous standard by a pretty huge majority.
Re Pitch: Cut for being a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds and failing the heinous standard.
@5299: I think Malachite's just a case of Names The Same. Anyway, I guess I'll officially vote for keeping Malachite now.
edited 3rd Dec '12 5:29:26 PM by OccasionalExister
Didn't figure he was.
Someone added this to the literature page:
"* In The Wonderful Wizard of Oz both the witches of the East and West seem to rule their lands through fear and enslavement. Why, the Witch of the East actually hexed the Tin Man's ax back when he was flesh so he would lose limbs when he used it until there was nothing left of him that wasn't tin. And just when he thought he beat her, she enchanted it one more time to destroy the last thing that made him feel human...his heart. And all this just so he wouldn't marry one of her subjects."
I've cut it and asked them to come here. I've done the same thing with the Alex Rider examples that were brought up a few pages back.
edited 3rd Dec '12 5:47:24 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
The reason I lean towards keep on alternate 17 and 18...the ones in the 'main' DBZ timelines pull full turns into good guys and clearly have free will. No indication is made that the Trunks timeline 17 and 18 were anything but drunk on power
Wait, on the Dragon Ball Online being non-canon front, wasn't it's big selling point (besides the obvious) being that Akira Toyima was involved in the game development, making it canon?
For the other villians from Dragon Ball Z:
- Future 17 and 18 wouldn't count, but it'd be a close cut. From some of the lines they might not have the amount of free will they did in the current timeline. Despite the pointing out the current timeline's ones became good, there were a lot of differences between the two, most notably that in the future timeline Gero apparantly gave up on Android 19, and kept 17 and 18 active whereas in the current timeline he had kept them in storage. That and the lines the pair give in Trunk's special would push them out of CM territory for me.
- Cell would count, because while he was created to be a weapon, he still has free will and takes sadistic glee in the torment he inflicts.
- Tao Pai Pai, despite killing quite a few people, isn't hated by Goku at all in Z, so he's not treated with fear or disgust. Since they're both in the same continuity, I would rule that'd be enough to disqualify him.
- Dr Gero doesn't do enough onscreen to really count, and he was dead by the time the consequences of his actions started to ruin things. I vote cut.
- I'd also cut Super Buu, has he lacks the moral agency in order to count, since he's literally the evil half of Fat Buu with the power of both.
- Bibidi and Babidi should both get cut, as the worst of their acts are entirely off-screen without even a flash-back to show them.
edited 3rd Dec '12 5:56:53 PM by Shaoken
For Tao, would that not qualify as a retcon? Also does Goku hate anybody really?
Re: The Wonderful Wizard of Oz: While the Wicked Witches aren't nice people or remotely sympathetic, they also don't really stand out compared to the other villains in the series. I don't remember what book it was, but I do remember that one of the other antagonists turned live people into pottery, for no reason other than his own amusement, where they lived on, fully aware but fully unable to even move. So I think the witches fail the "heinous by the standards of the story" criteria.
edited 3rd Dec '12 6:04:36 PM by Nocturna
Goku being an idiot shouldn't disqualify Tao. The man showed mercy to Freeza of all people. he's probably stupid enough to think Tao was just a guy he had fun fights with at that points.
Goku hates Freeza and Cell, and treats them like they are Complete Monsters. With Tao he treats him like an old aquaintance. But if DBO counts as canon (and I see no reason why it shouldn't considering it has the founders input, and it ignores Dragon Ball GT which wasn't written by AT), then he's not a CM on account of being brought back to life by the Dragon Balls at the end of Z (the wish itself stating that it wouldn't bring back the evil people of Earth).
By the time Z roles around Tao's been reduced to more of a joke character.
@ Krystoff: I brought up why I think he doesn't count here
.
Short version: He's pitiable... sorta, and a very standard villain.
edited 3rd Dec '12 12:26:13 PM by DrPsyche