Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Whatever standard we draw, slaughtering an entire village to the last child probably shouldn't be a disqualifying factor.

I was about to say that xD Going by that, many, many CM's would have to been cut. Rapers, childkillers, whoever slaughters less than a whole village.

I really don't think this line would be fitting, just because the heroes of ASOIAF do it too

edited 26th Nov '12 12:42:58 PM by Forenperser

Yes it is actually. C Ms acts are supposed to be so heinous that even if you transfer them to the other story, they still have to be considered villains or Type V of an Anti-Hero at worst. This is just my opinion though.

edited 26th Nov '12 12:52:53 PM by Krystoff

The fact that you need to be a villain to be a CM kind of goes without saying, Krystoff, but that has no bearing on whether characters from different works need to be judged relative to one another. We've established this repeatedly, so why you'd go on a rant about it is beyond me.

And what is your opinion of Shan-Yu? I have no problems with keeping him if the consensus will be that.

I am just saying that being the most evil character in the story which is definetly the case for Shan yu and being a CM are two different things.

edited 26th Nov '12 1:00:40 PM by Krystoff

I have only been skimming the conversation. I can say that slaughtering a village certainly counts towards the heinous criterion, assuming that it's not Offscreen Villainy and that slaughtering villages is not the sort of thing that any wannabe villain needs to do in the story to be taken seriously. He still needs to satisfy the other criteria, and I have not seen Mulan to have formed my own opinion.

However, comparing him to villains from A Song Of Ice And Fire or any other franchise is invalid.

edited 26th Nov '12 1:02:35 PM by Fighteer

I'd like to nominate Caesar Clown from One Piece to be added to the One Piece Complete Monster subpage. He's poisoned children, killed/experimented on Brownbeard's crew, turned Brownbeard's other compatriots against him, and was responsible for that nuke going off on the island while blaming Vegapunk (who in reality tried to stop him). He shows no regret for his actions, cultivates a Villain with Good Publicity with his pawns, and laughs when his pawns gun down Brownbeard after he feigns that Brownbeard went insane.

^Is that enough for One Piece standards? While I don't know it, I am interested in stories at the sea and this one strikes me as having a high standard for evil.

I think it does. What he did to the children was absolutely unforgivable in the standards of the universe (Chopper was horrified and pissed off) and he's already caused hundreds of deaths with his experiments.

Well, Eviler than Thou or Even Evil Has Standards is always a good indicator of potential CM status.

I'm gonna have to throw in my vote for Caesar Clown as well...I've been reading it, and he's really plumbing new depths as far as vileness goes. He definitely deserves to stand with Akainu, Hody Jones and the others

@Krystoff

Yes we draw the line somewhere. But mass murder isn't somewhere. Under that logic we'd have to axe the entire Disney page because not a single one measures upto what characters in ASOIAF, Berserk, etc do. For that matter we'd have to remove every villain who isn't from that sort of twisted medieval fantasy.

We settled the Shan-Yu discussion a long time ago. Let it die, please.

Alright, more than one page and no objection for Bloodwyn, only 1 pro. I'll add him. If there come more objections later, I'm always ready to change/delete.

EDIT: Done. Opinions? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/Gothic

edited 26th Nov '12 4:35:35 PM by Forenperser

Caesar Clown: Sounds bad, I'm inclined to vote to keep.

On the anime subpage, Monster.Higurashi, we have the people that work in the orphanage that Big Bad Takano resided at. We can remove the mention of these people since they're a group, and the rules say no groups. That would also apply with the Yamainu. Though, the other examples are definite keeps.

From what I've read and heard, the majority of those are far from definite keeps. Rina and Teppei are far below the standards of villainy; what they do is pretty much no different than Ghetsis' ill treatment of his son, and in a universe that has higher standards than those of Pokemon. Miyo Takano seems like a better sell, but her character page implies that she is, in some shape or form, redeemable and that she has genuine loved ones. The remaining example is someone I have never heard of, but if she never encounters the protagonists, it sounds like her influence is too heavily based on off-screen events and hands-off actions to be that credible of an entry. Sans potentially the last entry, all of those seem nuke-able.

Also, I believe we have decided to put Caesar Clown on hold until the arc ends, so he'll be evaluated in due time.

edited 26th Nov '12 8:07:28 PM by AquaRegia

I kind of have to disagree on Takano. Yes, I am aware of her bacstory, but I never found it sad. Yes, she loses both of her parents, she lives at that God forsaken orphanage and was treated badly, and that in the sound novels (or manga, I think), the people who work at the orphanage kill her friends for no other reason than for the Hell of it. And lastly, I am aware that she tried to prove that he grandfather's research on the Hinamwizawa Syndrome to prove that he wasn'ta loon. However, how she executes this plan, I cannot agree with. She repeatedly kills Rika, and she is somewhat responsible for the "Groundhog Day" Loop that the show is famous for. She betrays her villagers for hundreds of years, she kills her own boyfriend with the Syndrome, etc. However, what I think makes her a monster is when she asked Satako which one was green; brocli or cauliflower. It was implied that she was also color blind and she had no idea if Satako answered right. She kills her anyway, so you have to assume it's For the Evulz, especially since it wasn't helping her plan at all. In the manga, you could say that made her worse that she sprouted a huge Slasher Smile when she was killing Rika unlike in the anime version where we just see Rika get killed. The reason why I don't feel sympathetic for her, is because I never went through what she did, and that she might've been a good woman despite her dark past, had she not me Nomura. Though, I guess I understand why others feel sorry for her. Though, this is my opinion.

@5097 - Perhaps, since I suspect I'm one of few at best who even read TV Tropes, much less this thread, who has seen The Caesars, I should just let drop the matter of whether or not the series' presentation of Caligula qualifies. (Which is a pity; Ralph Bates' performance as Caligula is downright terrifying at times, and Freddie Jones makes a good Claudius. But I'm straying from the point.)

Either way, I did go back and watch the scene from Episode 5 ("Caligula") in which Caligula accidentally murders Drusilla during sex. He runs from the room in silent shock and wakes up Macro to tell him only that Drusilla is dead, and when Macro asks how, he simply pushes him aside and declares that guards must be posted outside her door, as she is a goddess. The next scene shows him holding a conversation with Drusilla's dead body and ultimately writhing on top of it as he promises to deify her and build a temple in her honour. It comes across less as honest concern and more as creepy obsession (much like I, Claudius, the series makes a specific point of presenting Caligula's incestuous relationships with his sisters as utterly depraved in every way, if in a less sensationalised manner than that used by the latter series). That said, it can also be interpreted as evidence that Caligula is genuinely insane at this point, which is probably the real sticking point for whether or not he qualifies as a CM.

As for the I, Claudius candidates, again, so far there is unanimous support in favour of keeping Caligula and cutting Nero, and majority support (4-1) in favour of cutting Messalina. Any further votes?

Thing is, you're not refuting that she otherwise has some redeemable feature than prevents her from being a 100% monster (and I'm not speaking from a "her back story is so tragic" thing because that isn't an automatic disqualifier). This isn't just about someone who does unspeakably horrible things; it's about someone who does so and has no single aspect to their entire existence that is positive in any way, shape or form. A character here cannot be a 99% monster, or a 99.9999-whatever-% monster; they have to be complete. If Miyo Takano has some chance of redeeming herself, or has some appreciation for another, that puts her in that 99% area.

Still, it seems like quite a few people still hold antipathy for her to this day, so there might be something behind that. I'll throw this in: You say she kills her lover in one arc; her character page says that, in another episode, she is unwilling to do so. Contextualize and analyze this: Does she genuinely care about her lover at any given point? Furthermore, is her motivation to carry out her grandfather's research for his honor like I've heard from some sources, or for her personal glory or something like that? Is she truly willing to become a better person at the end of the story; is she actually redeemed in some way, or does the plot arbitrarily through a bone to an unrepentant monster? If you argue against all of that, I would concede this entry to you. If you can argue through some of it, maybe someone else can pick up the slack and help answer those other questions.

I think One Piece warrants a look-through. For instance, Admiral Akainu, one of the series's flagship examples, is on very shaky ground after his Duel to the Death with his nicer colleague, Admiral Aokiji, for control of the Marines. He won, but spared Aokiji (who, IIRC, started the fight) out of deference to the years they spent working together. I'm pretty sure that violates the 'no altruism' rule. That, and I'm seeing one definite and one borderline 'no groups' violation.

edited 27th Nov '12 2:46:38 AM by Iaculus

What about the Overlords from Shades Children?

What the do, boiled down, is playing a real-world game of Starcraft. The difference is that instead of minerals and gas, they use human children. Not for greed or pride or anything, just to play a game.

They sound very horryfing, but I guess they violate "no groups" rule. I haven't read the books though.

I'd like to nominate Mor'du from Brave. In the movie proper, he is portrayed as a mindless beast, but in the DVD short "The Legend of Mor'du" he is shown to have been monstrous before his transformation. He was given a choice to unite the kingdom or gain power, and he chose power. When he saw he became Mor'du, he simply went with it and slaughtered his brothers. And when he returned to lead his armies to victory, they attacked him, prompting him to kill all those who couldn't escape him. He chose to kill all those people. What he became was a mindless brute consumed by rage, but he started out as more of a monster than he became.

I don't think so. He seems to approve of being killed, for one thing, like he hated what his new body was being made to do.

I vote against Mordu. Almost everything he did as a human happened offscreen, and he was shown to regret everything he did.