During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
-
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Torbalan and Stauf.
- Lighty, should I add Asmodeus and Ganelon to your to-do list?
- I repeat my questions on the second half of here.
- Overlord: The quotes in that sandbox are, pending approval, for the monster subpages (like Redjac to Monster.Star Trek).
As for Sequel!Stauf: If this
is correct, we can add rape and fingore.
edited 4th Oct '15 12:36:21 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Mmm...no, not yet. I wasn't even planning on Ganelon. bob's reading the manga so he might be able to do it better.
Anyways...about Clementine from Overlord...I have a few things to say about that soon, namely the fucking ridiculous heinous standard of that franchise. Now, Clem died in the anime before it got...too bad, but even so, we better be damn careful
Yeah, was wondering about that too. This is the Overlord, right?
Also seems like one of what I call those bad female examples.
I mean I'll grant she actually sounds legitimately heinous, and worse than the protagonist, but you're also talking about a work where the protagonist is pretty evil and his way of demonstrating that Even Evil Has Standards is brutally killing her.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Pay Evil unto Evil like The Punisher? Though now I'm curious, just how bad does that series get?
Pretty bad, a lot the Momonga's subordinates are evil aligned monsters who like torturing or eating humans, and Momonga himself has basically lost the majority of his ability to feel emotion, one of the first things that happens on learning the game he is playing is reality now is him noticing how he doesn't really feel anything when he watches dozens of people being killed and was perfectly fine to sit back and watch them die.
Momonga at one point intended to commit genocide on some tribes of lizardmen to create a large undead army after learning that there might be some people who could be a threat to him. He has no problem allowing torture of captives and IIRC has had people vivisected. He manipulated adventurers into trying to raid his fortress and brutally massacred them while experimenting on those who didn't die, and when fighting an army summoned a handful of the Dark Young through the spell La Shub-Niggurath which killed like 70,000 of them to perform the summoning, while the monsters then slaughtered even more and found it amusing because he broke his record for how many he summoned at once.
Reading the above, I'm going to say ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Clementine. Despite the protagonist disapproving of her actions, I'm not sure under what standard she could be considered more heinous than him.
The only issue is Clementine's death in the anime takes place at the end, which encompasses the first of the three novels. There are 9-10 novels and Ainz doesn't begin vaulting over the line of pure evil until later in the series. So the only way I think Clementine can count is if we just take the anime.
Doineedaname covered some of Momonga's worst actions, but his subordinates are incredibly vile as well. Demiurge raises human cattle for slavery, experimentation, vivisection, recreational torture, sacrifice or just feeding to monsters that like being human. Shalltear is a murderous vampire who's strongly implied to sexually abuse her 'brides,' and Momonga himself has reached a point where he's not just pretending to be a lunatic evil overlord anymore, but actually is one.
In the anime, Clem can probably count where it ended, but...
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
And this Momonga has standards? This is starting to seem like Anita Blake.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Anita was a Designated Hero; this guy sounds like an intentional Villain Protagonist.
Quite intentionally yes.
Anime!Clementine, Novel!Clementine
Well his killing of Clementine was less a case of standards and more "I kinda liked the people you killed even though I was just using them".
He also doesn't quite realize Demiurge is actually talking about humans. He basically referred to them as livestock and Momonga assumed they were just animals.
All of his subordinates were also never intended to be real, they were NP Cs in a video game designed by his guildmates who roleplayed an evil guild since they were all playing as monster races, but now everything related to Momonga's character and guild became real after being transported to a generic fantasy.
edited 4th Oct '15 10:19:18 AM by doineedaname
So this guy's the Digimon Emperor on crack, basically?
Yeah, unless these minions of Momonga aren't psychopathic mass murderers, cannibals and torturers in the anime as well, gonna go with a hard no to Clementine regardless of anime or manga. I mean, even if the protagonist does go way off the deep end until later, the fact that his minions are still monsters still really impacts the heinous standard.
edited 4th Oct '15 10:26:43 AM by OccasionalExister
So, is there consensus on Donquixote Doflamingo? The last chapter he's seen in really doesn't imply that he'll have redeeming qualities in the future. He seems ecstatic at the idea that the world is going into chaos, which may be a tiny consolation prize with his stated goal to destroy the world. His pet the dog moments seems like a dedicated case of pragmatic villainy and really subtle manipulation, and his Freudian Excuse and any redeeming qualities (if any that I missed) doesn't seem to hold up considering his numerous heinous actions.
Well so far it hasn't gotten to them doing much, with what would have shown up cut for time, or done to asshole victims. The only person they've eaten in the anime was a rapist who wanted to rape the girl who devoured him.
@Hamburger Time- Yeah- that's what I was thinking- like take that guy but up the evil and make him some sort of wish fulfillment Villain Sue.
Although it sounds like there's some hints of the manga/anime having a bit of awareness about his character.
Caesar
Alright, Izamura has enough s I would say, so here's his write-up. Any more votes appreciated.
NOTE: Anyone think I should link Ephebophile in there? It's all but stated he wants that, with lines like, "Give yourself to me and I'll save you!" and, "Did you see the look on her face as she clung to me? I look forward to seeing that face again." thrown around by him alot.
Patema Inverted: Izamura is the leader of Aiga, a Totalitarian Utilitarian society that he rules with an iron fist. Declaring all "Inverts" to be sinners who deserve to be punished, Izamura regularly eliminates anyone who tries to associate with them or their culture. After capturing Patema, a young Invert girl, Izamura threatens Age, an Aigan boy she befriended, with death unless he "forgets" her, and taunts him about his father's death at Izamura's hands. Psychologically torturing Patema to try to break her into becoming his slave, Izamura develops a disturbing obsession with her, disgusting his second-in-command, Jack. When Patema and Age flee to the underground Invert city, Izamura follows them, tries to kill their Invert friends, then attempts to shoot Jack for saving his own soldiers rather than murder the Inverts. Cornering Age and Patema, Izamura shoots Age in the leg, then states he's going to shoot the rest of his limbs until he can no longer protect Patema. Making one last attempt to claim Patema as "his," Izamura tries to drag her down with him when he falls to his death. A vicious dictator, Izamura was a Knight Templar of the highest, depraved, order.
edited 4th Oct '15 12:11:48 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Eh, I'd say the novels are plenty aware with all the time spent building up the people whose lives he's going to ruin as likable and sympathetic. If volume 4 with the Lizardmen Heroes didn't, Volume 7 with Arche, her family, and her comrades in Foresight definitely did.
Also on Doflamingo, I want to add that one of his attacks is a cruel homage to the time he heard someone say that that their son was shot 16 times. The attack is called god thread and he uses 16 strings he calls ammo.
I've said I'm gonna write up Doflamingo soon about three times now. Patience, please.
Since Momonga is clearly a terrible person himself, and has done much more evil than Clementne, I would like to know, How do their resources compare?
jjj
Massively different. Momonga essentially has the strongest military force the world has ever seen due to his necromancy and his guild's dungeon and NP Cs. Even individually him, his dungeon's boss monsters and sub bosses are stronger than basically any single individual around.
Momonga defeats her without even using any of his power, he's a wizard and fought her relying on nothing but brute strength and some swords he picked up. The people Clementine compares herself to in power fare little better against even the weaker of Momonga's subordinates, run in terror from them when they were holding back or were barely able to survive opponents Momonga kills with contemptuous ease after laughing at how badly he overestimated them.
edited 4th Oct '15 2:15:08 PM by doineedaname
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So does Momonga even have standards, or could he himself count?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Honestly, I've played it, but I can't much remember, but I know he sure wasn't any nicer.