Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

You know, I hate to "relitigate" entries, but I could theoretically see a reconsideration of Father along the lines of the Light discussion. (Warning, spoilers!)

Because while the Brotherhood anime is basically the same as the manga, it has some differences, one of which is relevant. So, there's a moment in his final appearance where Hohenheim thinks about how he was a lousy father to Ed and Al and he/the anime make a connection between that and his being a lousy father to Father (who was originally a shadow blob created/given corporeal form from Hohenheim's blood). And there's this sort of sense of "we could have avoided all of this" had the younger Hohenheim given more concern to blob!Father's desire to be free. It's very Frankenstein.

Now the manga has all of the same motivations for Father- his desire for freedom and knowledge; his Inferiority Superiority Complex toward humanity; his hatred of humans due to their tendency to live down to his expectations; and his cruelty- but IIRC it lacks such a scene where one of the characters explicitly shows sympathy toward Father.

In both media, Father's end is very pathetic, but I have to admit that pathetic is not the same as sympathetic.

Edit- It struck me the other day that Father is oddly similar to Ultron- but an Ultron where you split the difference between the CM-Ultron of the comics and the non-CM Ultron of Age of Ultron and Earths Mightiest Heroes.

edited 21st Sep '15 8:25:27 PM by Hodor2

IIRC Father was cut because he was deemed to have Blue-and-Orange Morality. Though I'm not sure I agree thinking about it; the part where he tricked Hohenheim into destroying a small country seemed quite personal and human to me.

Whenever I think about that incident, I always think to myself, "Ha ha, made you wipe out your own civilization!" I'm probably going to Hell for that.

But yeah, it's iffy- and I don't think Father's inhumanity after removing his emotions would be a disqualifies as that's sort of the the same thing as the Voldemort Horcrux issue.

On the other hand, I have noted how Greed, the most sympathetic/human(e) of the hommunculi seems to have human emotions but not know how to understand them. Like for most of the story, he confuses a desire for friendship with a desire to take over the world. Father is the sort of the same (replace desire for friendship with a desire for freedom and knowledge) but far more malicious.

Also, for what it's worth, when Father says he views humans the way humans view ants, he seems to be making a sincere, non-malicious statement of his worldview.

Yeah, that statement and his apparent honesty in saying it was the specific thing that disqualified him, from what I remember.

On Hohenheim's remorse for how he treated Father: I don't see how that's be disqualifying. Film/Gladiator had a similar situation with Commodus and Marcus Aurelius, and that didn't stop the former from qualifying. On the other points... I don't know. I'm not that far into Brotherhood yet.

Also, I changed my mind on reading Jack Ryan. Instead, I'm reading John Carter of Mars, because why not?

edited 21st Sep '15 9:14:57 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

@ Camberf, I like that Redjac quote, I would support that being the quote for the Star Trek monster page.

Redjac quote

I found the best Runescape image I could find for the Monster page (it's an official wallpaper released for the quest that features his death). It depicts Lowerniel Drakan killing a random soldier in a graphic manner. Tell me what you all think.

edited 21st Sep '15 10:59:19 PM by LoreDeluxe

To the Redjac quote.
To the Runescape image.
Satoshi, could you please add those to the YMMV page? BTW, where would they go? Other Media under Web Original?

edited 22nd Sep '15 12:51:55 AM by ACW

I gotta go to bed so I don't have anything serious to contribute right now, but I just wanted to say before I forgot that "edgy as a golfball" is like the most quotable thing ever posted in this thread.

"Edge as a Nerf ball" works better

Actually, after thinking about this for a bit, you know what might work even better than a moratorium for solving the issue with these shitdark Torture Porn amateur works that keep coming up? A flat ban on examples from works without a page on this site. I seriously, seriously doubt that most of this stuff would pass the P5 anyway, and I can't think of a more obvious way of prioritizing than to stop just dredging up random villains from the lowest depths of the internet.

Not that I have a problem with a moratorium - obviously some people need it - but it might be worth implementing this rule after it's done.

edited 22nd Sep '15 1:33:11 AM by nrjxll

Yes, it goes under Other Media.

That is an excellent idea

@ Lore Deluxe: Great Runescape image.

@ njrxll: I don't think that's a good idea for the simple reason that many examples from published works that we've qualified don't have a page. Implementing that rule going forward might be a better option.

I tend to ignore all these amateurish shitdark examples when they're brought up anyway, but I heartily support HT and Lightysnake's proposal for at least a temporary moratorium on discussing them. I think the reason why some contributors have started scraping the bottom of the barrel, as it were, is in an effort to keep bringing up new examples. But these amateur works brought up lately have no redeeming qualities, not even in an ironic way, so 99% of the people here just loathe discussing them even if there's technically no bar to them (though I'm still skeptical about the general vileness of the "genre" making a stand-out possible). It's not just Creepypasta and Darkfic either; when people bring up friggin' rape simulators for serious consideration (which can't even have pages for obvious reasons), one must conclude that they're really, really desperate for examples. Guys, at some point the well just dries up. With undiscovered works being brought up for consideration and new media being released all the time, we'll presumably always have something to talk about, but we have to accept that at some point a cleanup project will be mostly finished.

Which reminds me—with virtually all of the misuse purged, is there anything barring us at this point from putting Complete Monster through TRS to make it a Main trope?

edited 22nd Sep '15 4:40:01 AM by Morgenthaler

44824: What said, and also the fact that someone could create a page for a work.
I support keeping it YMMV; after all, misuse aside, there are some (most?) that haven't been unanimous (hello Hades). And conversely, there have been some characters that people think SHOULD count but were voted down.

edited 22nd Sep '15 5:26:48 AM by ACW

@nrjxll: That sounds like a poor idea. There are a lot of published works without pages (The Algebraist, Lincz and The Barrows being three examples).

There's nothing stopping pages from being made. What do we seriously gain from hosting examples that don't have a works page on this site?

What do we lose from having them? This honestly looks like an attempt to arbitrarily exclude certain works.

With all due respect, that doesn't actually counter my point. It's more like we're saying the same thing from a different point of view.

I'm against that idea. It's a lot of time and effort to make tons of pages. I've proposed a bunch of examples without pages that are far from the lowest dregs of the internet.

Okay, fine. It's not my idea anyway so I don't really have a horse in this race.

For the record, I'm OK with a ban on fanfic/Creepypastas without a trope page.

I say we see where the "one-month ban" takes us before we start disputing a perma-ban.

I already made a page for Lincz. And I think banning works without pages is a single worst idea that ever came up on this page. By that logic we would have to cut lots of examples that don't have a page.