During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lost in Space
For the most part, the Jack Ryan series goes out of its way to ensure that its villains have at least some motivation other than For the Evulz.
edited 21st Sep '15 1:48:40 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't think you'll find an example in The Count of Monte Cristo, since it's been brought up here before and the one character that was on the YMMV page was pretty unanimously cut. Obviously that shouldn't keep you from reading it, though.
@Camberf: I just keep special watch on revenge stories, since there are a lot of them with monsters.
You know what's really sad? Some of the really bad creepypastas are actually very popular, Dating Game for example is One of the highest rated stories on the creepypasta wiki. That story about the rapist child murdering werewolf gym teacher has a ton of positive comments, and the author of that story as written several other "amazing" stories on the site (the words of one of the commenters). Origin of Laughing Jack (not one of our examples but I brought up Isaac Grossman from it a few months ago) has a man torturing and killing a 6 year old boy because he "made a nasty face at him", and it's gotten a ton of praise. Seems a lot of people actually eat this stuff up.
Anyway, if we were to wait exactly one month before discussing any more fanwork/ creepypasta examples, that would put the date at October 21st, 10 days before Halloween. The author of the gym teacher story said they would be releasing the sequel right before Halloween. If the discussion period lasts about 10 days, we should be able to evaluate Steven Kirby, but just how long will the period last after it starts? A fortnight? A month? Any idea?
jjj
I say "Let's wait until then because that'll be a month." 
I'm late to the punch, but I'm full in support suppressing any "grimdark" fanfiction/Creepypastas for at least a month. Patient 88 was utterly boring drek and about the only reason I ended up reading it was to look more into Richards. On the subject on fanfiction, I'm helping a friend write a Pokemon fanfic and specifically advised against the whole unnecessary dark gak and she's instead trying to make it closer to the games in feel.
@bobg Popular doesn't mean good, and the fact people actually like this stuff says poor things about our society. The grimdark shit-pile we've got is of zero redeemable essence, and in my opinion, shouldn't even be treated as proper literature. The fan-fic section is filled with entries that seriously need to be looked at, even some of the ones I didn't pull way back when, and unless we can get the original people who made the entries to comment in I say wipe out the ones of lower quality.
edited 21st Sep '15 3:18:22 PM by Scraggle
Yeah, the popularity of these just drive home my opinion of this audience.
Did we discuss the [1] versions of Father, Envy and Wrath? I'm watching the show now, and they're all on my watchlist. I'd search for them, but their names are all standard English words.
edited 21st Sep '15 4:10:15 PM by DemonDuckofDoom
Yeah, not every "OMG, too spooky!" fic needs to be up there. Especially if the fic is so dark that it doesn't make the candidate heinous enough.
I still want to know if anyone else will vote on Felix and Hargrove. Any more votes?
I'm solidly on a yes for Hargrove and Felix now, and I can write them up as well.
We did, and decided none of them count. Father is the only one I opposed the exclusion of.
@Lighty: Thanks. BTW, how do I pothole a trope (like, say, Olympus Mons) to text (like Arceus)? Is that how to pothole external links too?
Yep, it works for links, Do it like [[ this, except with no space with the brackets.]]
Caesar
I too have binging on Red v. Blue, and though I haven't completely caught up, I'll give a definite ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Felix and Hargrove.
Oh, and I can't wait for the next adventures of Steven Kirby! I can't wait to see what that rascally scamp gets up to in the sequel! Maybe he'll rape and murder a cheerleader before eating a baby in front of the mother (and raping and killing her too because OF COURSE) and then getting away with it all because DARK DARK EDGY THE AUTHOR IS SO EDGY.
Christ, it's as edgy as a golfball.
You know, speaking of FMA, I've heard people talk about how the villains in the 2003 series are more sympathetic than the villains in the manga and Brotherhood.
It's funny because the 2003 series has more Monsters than the manga and Brotherhood.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
And 2003!Barry is much darker apparently.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
We actually discussed this when FMA came up. It's more like the manga's villains occupy many different "levels" of villainy, but 2003's are either totally sympathetic or totally monstrous with little middle ground.
Caesar
Not just villainy either.
2003!Envy? Badass who can fight Edward Elric one-on-one and died like a, for lack of a better word, boss.
Brotherhood!Envy? Lucky to get a few hits on Edward Elric and went out like a, for lack of a better word, chump.
And don't even get me started on Pride, Sloth, and Wrath...
It always get me just how far off the 2003 anime went from the then-not-complete manga.
edited 21st Sep '15 4:56:22 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Well it's a different continuity for a reason... It wasn't trying to be the manga after a point. And that's a good thing.
Also are there any X-Files fans here to discuss if the CSM is a CM or not? I honestly never made it passed Season 4 so even I'm not the best expert on this matter. All I know is there's a whole episode to the tragedy of his life and that doesn't seem to fit with CM criteria.
edited 21st Sep '15 5:45:09 PM by Nikkolas
I will begin on Felix and Hargrove write ups.
- Red Vs Blue:
- CEO of Charon Industries Malcom Hargrove, aka the Chairman, is one of the biggest villains in the series, and among its most evil. Even before his villain reveal, his investigation on the Director of Project Freelancer goes too far when he releases Agent Washington, who had no hesitation to kill the Reds and Blues at that point, and the Meta, a known criminal who killed Freelancers for their equipment and A.I.s, from prison to hunt down Epsilon, who was currently in possession of the Blue Team. He finds alien artifacts on a planet known as Chorus, so in order to collect them, he hires a group of Space Pirates to kill everyone on the planet by manipulating them into a Civil War. Hargrove sends ships containing cargo for the mercinaries to use to the planet, where the mercs kill everyone on the ship and steal the cargo for their own use. When the mission is in jeopardy, he threatens to kill his two lead mercs Locus and Felix (also a Complete Monster as seen below) by sending a new agent to finish the job. When he is exposed, he decides to kill everyone on the planet in a case of Taking You with Me.
- Felix, one of the Co-Dragons to the aforementioned Hargrove is just as bad. When he fought in the Great War, he never showed any mercy to his enemies, even those that were trying to surrender. When one of his teammates, Locus, was broken by the war, Felix kept him from getting help and dragged him along because he knew that he couldn't survive without his partner, despite hating him. When Felix was hired by Hargrove to create a Civil War on the planet Chorus, the mercinary took his job too far by infiltrating one the sides because he thought it would be fun for them to trust him while not knowing that he was leading them to their deaths while mocking them for trusting him. Felix also leads the raid on prison ship where the entire crew is killed and the prisoners who are not worthy to join forces with him ejected from the ship. When word comes out about the Purge, Felix is unable to resist being the one to personally kill off everyone, showing that he doesn't care about the orders and more about just killing for the hell of it, going as far as to sacrifice his own men just to kill everyone else. When the Purge temple is destroyed, Felix pointlessly goes after the Reds and Blues just so he can kill them.
edited 22nd Sep '15 3:41:47 AM by SatoshiBakura
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I came here to laught at you. Hi Nikkolas.
To the people in the thread: I think who we gonna wait a time for deciding for Desangrador from 5 Elementos. The Ocaso Virus is too weird and his motivation are unknowed. A awful man of course but...too vague.
And i join to Lightysnake club: I'm more interesed in Gihren Zabi like a Super Robot Big Bad in a Mobile Suit Gundam Fic or in the New menace to Konoha than the "crazy" pony murderer rapist and the Power Rapist Rangers.
RAPE! RAPE! RAPE! EVERYWHERE.
edited 21st Sep '15 6:08:04 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
I will give a to Felix. Hargrove, Connington, Valente and Kabal.
I also give a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Drebber and Strangerson. I'm not voting on the Power rangers Dark fic examples.
Regarding fan fiction, I support the one month ban on reviewing and I suggest that in the future we only review fan fiction with some quality and logic. A Batman fan fic where Joker is a monster seems like a better choice to review then a story where Care Bears become serial killers.
Also touching on a point from a few pages back, does Lobo ruin the heinious standard so much that someone like Mongul can no longer count in the DCU?
Also after tonight's episode of Gotham, there might be a few more characters that could be on the "wait and see" list.
Does anyone have any opinions on the Star Trek quote I suggested? Does anyone have any other ideas for Star Trek quotes? Did Redjac say anything really evil in the comics?
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
I basically stand with a majority of everyone else on the whole fanfic/creepypasta debate. If it's just "Ooh look! Babies getting raped!" then no. We won't even bother. But there are fanfics out there that do have a plot to them and are more than just senseless Gorn and rape. Sure, they may be Darker and Edgier, but there's a difference between being dark and edgy to build a world that has the characters in peril at all times and actually makes you worried that the characters might actually die, and being dark and edgy because....reasons.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Here's something from Redjac that I sugested before.
We could use the whole thing or just part of it.
Redjac: Did you really believe you could destroy me, Captain Kirk? I am the hunger that cannot die. I existed when your earth was but a cooling mass and I fed then as I shall feed now. You will all die in pain and terror at my merest whim. First I'm going to work my way to you, my captain. The ensign, the lieutenants, all the way up the ranks to you. One by one until it's your turn to die. No matter where you hide, I will find you. Chekov- in the cold of airless space, I will feast on your frozen heart. Richardson. You will die in fire, watching the flames consume you. Your life boils away in a great steaming cloud. Scott. I will come for you as Kara and my soft lips will be red with your blood. Saavik. You are both Vulcan and Romulan. Which half shall I slay first? You will all fear my name and suffer horribly at my touch, and your pain will last an eternity until I have had my fill of your pathetic, human..
Capt. Kirk: That's enough, ensign!
Star Trek: Wolf on the Prowl
edited 21st Sep '15 8:09:42 PM by Camberf
@Hamburger Time: Yeah, I heard Doyle actually apologized to a Mormon official, because he was misinformed about Mormon doctrine and practice.
By the way, I have decided to start reading the Jack Ryan series too. I'll see if there are any more candidates than the ones that are already up. The other book I'm reading that I'm looking for examples in is The Count of Monte Cristo. I'm pretty sure you guys got all the examples in A Song of Ice and Fire and The Hunger Games, and I somehow doubt Moby-Dick or Literature/Beowulf will have one.
edited 21st Sep '15 1:49:45 PM by DemonDuckofDoom