During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Curse Bells: Is it only implied that the Warlock is Hitler, or is it made clear?
And seconded what Lighty said about Kratos. A CLEAR ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
edited 31st Jul '15 12:05:03 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
It's made as clear as possible without mentioning his name. However, given how the story ends, Baltimore must be an alternate reality
edited 31st Jul '15 12:13:13 AM by Lightysnake
I still have season two of Outlander to watch, but Black Jack Randall looks like he's going to be an easy one.
Also, someone added these two examples on YMMV.The Strain TV Series, I suppose they weren't discussed here first? In any case, I don't think we know enough about the Master yet to include him, and Palmer clearly cared about his assistant in season one.
- The Master's sadism was brought over from the books.
- Eldritch Palmre is willing to arrange the deaths of countless innocents just so the Master will grant him immortality.
Palmer fails the heinous standard anyways.
The Master, however, if the books are an indication...then, yeah. Even any info on the nature of the Ancients and vampires in general don't really mitigate him as he's ridiculously worse than the other 6. Eichhorst is the only other potential keep in the show.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So, make it this then?
The nameless warlock (who is clearly Adolf Hitler)...
Just add that parenthetical?
Someone added Palmer to the Lit YMMV as well; I cut and linked here.
Lighty, shall I add Black Jack to your to-do list, or wait for now?
edited 31st Jul '15 12:46:17 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Party Crasher
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Though his arc isn't done yet, Eichhorst seems to meet all the criteria so far. The fact that it's made clear he's not another mindless vampire drone helps.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Looks like it IS Hitler, confirmed by Word of God.
Caesar
Well, it's officially been two weeks since Ant-Man was released, so are we going to go through the whole effortpost process and everything? Or just vote since the majority of us have no doubt seen the film?
EDIT: Oh, but let's still use spoiler tags regardless of what we do considering I'm sure there are still some here who haven't seen it yet.
edited 31st Jul '15 6:53:14 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I've not seen it (strange for a Marvel film, but for some reason I don't have much of a desire too).
I'm gonna request swapping of Transformers Monster Monday.
edited 31st Jul '15 7:19:34 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
So now that Every Witch Way is over, I can say that Jake Novoa isn't a CM, but he is a dark WIE, who genuinely is trying to protect the witches and his children, despite being a hardass to his son. The true Big Bad of the season, Liana Woods is pretty standard herself and Torres still doesn't count for the same reasons.
Now here's something else I want to talk about, the episodic video game Life Is Strange and I've put the character Mark Jefferson on my wait and see list. Because there's a two month wait between episodes, it'll be a while before I can effort post him.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
So, a week or two back I proposed Cassiopeia from Tale of the 500 Kingdoms. She got enough votes but I don't think I ever did a write-up. Here's one
- Tales of the Five Hundred Kingdoms: One Good Knight brings us Queen Cassiopeia, who conspires with her adviser, Solon to summon storms to wrack the coast of her country, sinking dozens of ships and drowning hundreds of sailors so that she can claim the salvage for the crown. When her citizenry become dissatisfied with her rule, Cassiopeia has Solon mind control the (otherwise harmless) dragon Adamant, forcing him to ravage the countryside, so that she may set up a lottery and feed the daughters of her political enemies to the dragon. After her own daughter, Andromeda, begins to suspect that someone is controlling the storms, Cassiopeia arranges (in a move that revolts even Solon) to have her sacrificed to the dragon, and take advantage of the public wave of sympathy that will follow. Totally convinced that the commonfolk should just put up with her capricious rule, Cassiopeia is plotting to have Solon assassinated when he finally makes his own move against her, ending her role in the story.
How does that read? It's been a while since I've done a write-up so it may not be my best work.
edited 31st Jul '15 9:28:44 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Caesar
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Cassiopeia write-up.
Now then, I suppose I'll go ahead and deal with the whole Ant-man situation. SPOILERS AHEAD FOR ANT-MAN!!
Who is he?
Darren Cross is the Big Bad Corrupt Corporate Executive of Ant-Man
What has he done?
- Murders fellow businessman who was against his latest technology, a weaponized Ant-Man-like suit, by shrinking him into a pile of goo with prototype shrinking technology.
- Tests his shrinking technology on lambs that reduce them to goo every time the tests fail, stated to be in the mid-30s.
- Plans to sell his weaponized suits to HYDRA.
- Tries to murder his mentor and his mentor's daughter, whom he had taken a liking to throughout the film, for trying to steal his prototype suit at the end of the film.
- Shows no remorse for killing his own henchmen while trying to shoot Ant-Man.
- Tries to murder Ant-Man's daughter because Ant-Man blew up his lab.
- Consistent murder/killing of ants throughout film.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
- His mentor abandoned him years ago for being too ambitious. Cross seems to feel sadness at this.
- The shrinking technology is implied to be making him mentally unstable. (Not that he was a stable person to begin with according to his mentor)
- He seems to genuinely like his mentor's daughter, so much that he claims he was going to kill his mentor earlier in the film, but didn't because she would have been a witness and he wasn't ready to kill her yet. By the end of the film though, he "was ready" to do it.
Heinousness?
Honestly, he isn't that heinous by MCU standards. Most of his acts are simple Kick the Dog actions and while by the end he has probably crossed the Moral Event Horizon, I don't think that's enough.
Final Verdict?
With numerous possible "redeeming features" and not too many overly villainous acts, I'm saying he's not a keeper. But, maybe I overlooked something and he does count. So any arguments are welcome.
edited 31st Jul '15 10:11:21 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Like I said a week ago, no to Darren Cross. Despite being absolutely crazy, he's not henious enough.
Darren Cross. Least heinous Corrupt Corporate Executive Big Bad in the entire MCU and has questionable moral agency and Pet the Dog issues.
edited 31st Jul '15 10:33:10 AM by VeryMelon
What melon said
Yup. to Darren Cross.
Really, the only reason we even ought to discuss him is that Ant-Man is high-profile enough that you know someone will try to add him if we don't.
indeed. Not only is he genuinely sympathetic at times, he's losing control of his mind in a genuinely sympathetic way.
to be honest, I'm kinda shocked his death is as ridiculously brutal and horrible as it is.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Is that his fault though? Although, I will say, trying to kill a kid (Cassie) is pretty bad.
Is Ant Man worth seeing BTW?
I actually liked it better than Age of Ultron. Less overstuffed.
Yes, it's very worth seeing.
Also, fun fact: I've been keeping up with info on the Death Note live action television drama...apparently, Light is quite different and even sympathetic in it.
You actually watched it or just read reviews? I only ask because I've read reviews of the original manga and anime that claimed Light was sympathetic when he pretty emphatically was not.
Seen a few, read reviews on the others.
Caesar
Yeah, Ant-Man is definitely worth seeing.
So, basically, what alot of people pretend Light was in the anime and manga? 
edited 31st Jul '15 12:22:22 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Easy to Cross. Heinousness and moral agency aside, his insecurities considering Hank Pym as his former mentor stick out to me as mitigating qualities.
All for...
Kratos has clear redeeming qualities. He loved his family, loves his daughter, cared about Hope and regrets what he's done at the end.