Kyon: Big Damn Hero

Matter of fact, i had the mental image of Koizumi's "mind probing darts" ricocheting off Kyon's perfectly polished snark mind-shield (pictured as a silver-like sphere surrounding his mind). But the Faraday effect could also be there.

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EDIT: I hope that didn't scare no one.

edited 18th Jan '12 11:35:40 AM by Agasa

Kyon; He's in his harem, All's right with the world Scratching at the cat box since 1986 while Battling with Dread Shoelace Robots.

New Durandall story: Sympathy Prologue & Chapter 1.

More? o.o

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So many stories, so little time.

Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.

Re: Sympathy.

Chapter 2's draft is available in Soulriders.

All the discussion about Kyon's Psychic Block Defense and his intention of finding "someone who's actually in charge" for The Combine mentioned in the last chapter (OB-7) make me wonder about certain hypothetical battle scenario:

Kyon versus "hatched" Advisor

Any thoughts?

My K:BDH Recursive Fanfiction

No contest. Kyon is a psychic blank, leaving them with nothing more than telekinesis. As far as weird powers go, I think gravity manipulation is a really good counter to telekinesis. Make something heavy when they try to pick it up and throw it at you, then make it light once it's in the air. Pretty much just the reverse of what Kyon and Kuyou were doing to throw desks around.

Besides, Kyon has a shifter weapon. A shifter weapon can turn into a crowbar. Crowbar > anything Combine.

I'm not so sure about that. Offensive gravity manipulations seems to have higher consumption rate, meaning that Kyon couldn't keep relying on it for too long. Besides, the Combine probably knows a lot about his morph weapons, so they could have a way to disable them or deplete the energy reserves.

Also, Advisors' TK is pretty high-level. From the Mind over Matter page:

IIRC, Advisor have some kind of mechanical limbs too. It's possible that they could resort to Cyborg weaponry.

Finally, the thing that worries me the most: Kyon is not going to shoot to kill at the first available chance and he is the perfect leverage against Kuyou. If I were in Combine's shoes I would set up a trap to capture him alive and take him out of K:BDH's dimension. If that proves to be too difficult or impossible to do, I would send an Advisor to try and Mind Control/Mind Rape him. That's not going to work thanks to his Psychic Block Defense, but if the Combine learns about it, they could label Kyon's existence as a menace to their supremacy.

My K:BDH Recursive Fanfiction

Ok, lets suppose that Kyon's gravity control wouldn't last for too long. If an Advisor can blow a hole in a roof to escape it's likely stronger than Kyon's gravity control, although Kyon was able to deflect the impact of a speeding minivan using his gravity control and his shields, so he's no slouch either.

Maybe, but I think probably not. A weapon with that sort of weakness would likely see a lot of effort put into getting rid of that. Also, these things melt if an unauthorized person touches them, remember? Well, they're supposed to; Haruhi and Yuki were able to remove that in seconds without any problems. Given the ease with which the SOS Brigade was able to override the security and the fact that the Combine sent over a thousand bots into our dimension without bothering to disable Kyon's weapons which annihilated the invasion force, I'd say that Kyon's weapons would be able to work reliably. If they could shut his weapons off, they would have done it before he used them to wipe out their invasion force.

It's possible, but we haven't seen any of that before. It's also possible that the godlike beings on Kyon's side could give him a weapon that generates black holes. For the sake of comparison, it's better to just look at the Kyon and the Advisor with the capabilities that we know they have rather than the ones that they could conceivably bring to the table later, particularly since closed space Haruhi could win any sort of Lensman Arms Race just by wishing more powerful weapons into existence.

Advisors aren't exactly quick to adapt to their surroundings. The section you quoted shows that they are unable to distinguish between humans, corpses, and freaking barrels without closer inspection. Kyon is very, very fast.

The Combine's whole schtick is inter-dimensional conquest, and they tried the same thing with Earth already. If they were willing to talk, they would have done so already instead of launching a full scale invasion. Kyon isn't stupid enough to try to talk to something that just tried to wipe out his planet. At least, not without beating it within an inch of its life first.

That would be a smart move from their perspective, but the thing I keep coming back to is that the SOS Brigade has basically been handling them with kid gloves this whole time. Haruhi has dramatically reduced her power so she can have fun with it and not worry about accidentally messing with the world too much. Kuyou can generate black holes and throw man-sized (well, Asakura sized) objects at very close to the speed of light. These are powers well beyond the scale of anything the Combine has been able to dish out. The failure to assimilate Kuyou would, by itself, be an invasion-breaking setback. What's the power of a few thousand (or million, or billion) death bots compared to a girl who can create black holes at will? Do we have any reason to believe that if things were really serious, they could remove Haruhi's self-imposed limiter and just annihilate the entire Combine the instant they show up in our dimension?

Maybe there is a reason they don't do this other than "because it's more fun to fight them like this", but I haven't seen it yet. Kyon has been giving the Combine a lot of trouble, but he's nothing compared to the kind of reality-breaking power that Haruhi could have. From their perspective, she's an Outside-Context Villain.

edited 18th Jan '12 7:38:16 PM by PaxEmpyrean

I think Kyon's Psychic Block Defense is somehow connected with that mystery about his birthday and Watanagashi. Well, that much is obvious, but it can be used as a starting ground.

Re: Kyon vs Advisor: That depend on Advisor's TK precision. If it only have Object-level TK, then Kyon have chance to battle it with Gravity control, like Free Man would. But if it has high-precision TK as well... crushing the heart or brain should be fatal for any human.

Edit:

Well, to be fair, they have similar girl on their own side, and not only one instance of it. And Wataru said they have experience with dealing with Haruhi. Well, probably not with her Awakened self, but still.

Still, I do believe they'll have another set of Dragons whom Kanae didn't see by the virtue of escaping before Invasion sets in. Maybe even combined!IDSE interfaces for Evil Twin scenario (and possibility to draw kbdh!IDSE in the open conflict.)

edited 18th Jan '12 8:06:33 PM by ZeroNull

Well, for Haruhi to remove her limiter (barring Koizumi's concerns about her sidestepping them, which she probably hasn't done), Kyon has the be present, conscious, and capable of speaking four words, which give the story a good deal of room to have her properly threatened.

Of course, there's no indication that the Combine has any idea of those conditions, or of the existence of Haruhi's limiter at all.

Note that fighting isn't fun for Haruhi and I doubt it is for the rest of the brigade. What I believe is closed-space!Haruhi would be wary of the slippery slope much like Koizumi is with his powers.

Kyon: Big Damn Hero: timeline & trailer

Not any more they don't.

That makes a world of difference. Awakened Haruhi is a being of godlike power. Regular Haruhi could be dealt with by hitting her in the back of the head with half a brick stuffed in the end of a sock.

While that is true, it's also been shown that the limiter isn't perfect. When she needed the ability to fly to save Kyon's sister, she suddenly got it. If she needed some particular power in order to save Kyon himself, I'm confident that it would be forthcoming. They'd probably try something else first, and she'd probably only get New Powers as the Plot Demands if all else failed, but I don't think failing to rescue Kyon is a realistic possibility even from a strictly Watsonian perspective.

Which would make for a hell of a surprise for them if they should push too far and Kyon decides that the Godzilla Threshold has been reached. Instead of a guy with a stolen morph weapon and a beam sword, they suddenly they have to deal with the fury of an angry goddess.

Haruhi assumed it would be. She was surprised when it turned out that it wasn't, and subconsciously gave herself a power up when she realized that the situation was too much for her current power set. I think to a certain extent she still isn't taking it entirely seriously, as evidenced by her comment when she learned that they had done some damage to Xen in their last encounter: "That sucks! I don't want to win a war like that if we have to hurt people!" Haruhi is still viewing their fight against the Combine in terms of what she wants to do, rather than what they may have to do.

That makes sense. She did mention something along those lines before she did her memory gambit on herself. However, it's possible that she wasn't taking the threat of the Combine seriously at that point, so her decision to limit her powers may have been made without an accurate assessment of the risks of doing so vs the risks of not doing so.

I would expect Haruhi to unlock her powers by degrees as the situation gets more dire. Up until this point it only happened once, and it was a subconscious thing. Actually, as I was typing that, I thought of how Alucard does this in Hellsing: "Unlocking limited release control system to level one. Situation A. Cromwell approval in effect", followed by an even bigger asskicking than is usual for him. That would give Haruhi the ability to adapt to various situations without having to lock herself completely in a memory gambit, and get her used to the idea of having at least some greater powers without being able to use them all the time. If Haruhi is ever going to get to the point where she can know about her powers, be responsible with them, and not feel totally bummed that she can't use them all the time, then something like this would be a good start.

My understanding of Haruhi's powers as they've changed throughout KBDH:

1. Canon and initial K:BDH: Unlimited Reality Warper, but unaware of the power. Therefore, it only manifests itself in relation to her subconscious expectations and desires. Can be dealt with decisively by action with initiative, e.g. brick to back of head.

2. Early K:BDH: Unlimited Reality Warper and aware of it, but all changes are filtered through Kyon and Yuki. (Which I suppose counts as a limit, but still.) Might be possible to override this filter in some way, but that was never fully addressed, I don't think. Still created closed space. Could be dealt with by action with initiative, but if there's even the slightest warning (and Kyon and Yuki are present) she can immediately buff herself to unkillable levels. Or just delete the attacker.

3. Later K:BDH, awake: Consciously-controlled Mind over Matter; later on became less limited, added flight and whatever those defensive grid things are. No reality warping power. This limitation can and has been overridden subconsciously, though seemingly only to add new powers to the allowed set, not to directly affect reality. Can be dealt with by action with initiative, but has plenty of options to defend herself, though not as many as 2.

4. Later K:BDH, closed space: Consciously-controlled Reality Warper. Unsure if the power is still limited by Kyon and Yuki; she altered her own powers without Kyon or Yuki's cooperation, and showed unlimited power in closed space, but has not altered anything in the real world. If she demonstrates the level of power that she had in closed space in reality, then she can't really be dealt with at all, except maybe by instakill attack from complete surprise.

So the questions: Is closed space Haruhi still limited by Kyon and Yuki? Is the Kyon-Yuki filter a mental limitation that Haruhi put on herself, like the limitation to Mind over Matter, or does it have some external enforcement that can't be instantly overridden? If Kyon uses the Trust Password during battle, will it throw them both back into closed space, or will Haruhi become unbound in reality?

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)

I don't think so.

I thought she put it in place herself.

I would assume it would take them back to closed space. If Haruhi decides to remove her limits at that point, I think she can do so unilaterally and then send them both back to the real world.

Of course, it's amazing how many godlike beings you can take down with that.

One point — when Haruhi was explaining how she now could fly, she gave a rationale involving Yuki telling her that she'd get new powers with practice. As far as I can recall, Yuki never said that to her on-screen, so it's possible that this is a closed-space planted rationalization. I'm leaning toward the theory that Haruhi hasn't bypassed her limiter, but that when she "increased her powers some" in safe mode, she set up some tiered power upgrades, unlockable with practice or at dire need.

edited 19th Jan '12 12:31:26 AM by Taper

Is that so? I interpreted the line about "subordinate instances of ...other entities which fill roles similar to Suou Kuyou's" as there are more other!Kuyou-alikes than one that got herself deleted.

Well, even Awakened Haruhi can be dealt with by any instant-stun (or panic/confusion-inducing) action with element of surprise (unless she wills herself to have no weakness of human body beforehand). And the fact that Wataru especially addressed the fact they already dealt with her before implies Combine encountered come instances of her what had access to some of her powers.

To be fair, her flight might be just an extension of her TK.

About closed space Haruhi – isn't she limiting herself via "safe-mode"? And about invoking Trust Password: it seems to send users into the pocket reality on activation, so that could be used as emergency bailout. But then, if used when some kind of transportation interference is in place, or in the vicinity of Sasaki, what would happen? Would it just restore Haruhi’s memories? Or fail outright, as badly programmed script?

edited 19th Jan '12 12:55:11 AM by ZeroNull

I knew somebody would catch that. :)

That could be. Whether she can bypass her limiter unintentionally or if she poked holes in it ahead of time, either way we're looking at power increases as demanded by circumstance.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Editing further...

It doesn't say that they are working with the Combine, though. Merely that they are there. Personally I think that given the scale at which Kuyou can perceive the universe, they might as well be omnipresent within their local dimension.

Where did they say other instances had control of their powers?

We discussed the possibility of using telekinesis to fly a few thousand posts ago (before she ever flew), but Haruhi never explained that she used her telekinesis to fly. She just said she needed to fly, so she did. I think if she were flying via telekinesis she would have said so when Kyon asked her about it.

I think her limitations are self-imposed. About doing stuff when Sasaki is around, I'm really losing interest in that topic. It's been beaten to death, revived, and beaten to death infinitum ad nauseum. We don't know how much of an impact her power nullifier has and we've all come up with a dozen ways to prove that the supernatural exists despite her nullifier.

edited 19th Jan '12 1:35:17 AM by PaxEmpyrean

I'm with Taper's theory. Makes lot of sense. More, considering that now she's fully aware of the power.

edited 19th Jan '12 1:37:53 AM by Agasa

Kyon; He's in his harem, All's right with the world Scratching at the cat box since 1986 while Battling with Dread Shoelace Robots.

Gah, quoteblocks.

Closed Space Haruhi would be best off left where she is unless the Godzilla Threshold is crossed. Her stray thoughts could easily cause as much damage as the Combine. Huh, reminds me of the character in my avatar.

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That makes me think of Masou Shoujo Kyon. Somehow, it doesn't fit.

I did naht.

Then think Kyon cosplaying as Trope-tan. It happened.

Kyon as a zombie makes more sense, however. Besides, the only candidate for Haruna is Nonoko.

He and Ayumu look so similar... XD

edited 19th Jan '12 6:18:24 AM by RainehDaze

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1000%!!

Re: Closed-space!Haruhi.

Do you think Kyon is regularly meeting up with cs!Haruhi offscreen?

IMO, this would be the right thing to do, even if it's just to reprieve her of a nasty headache because of the Exposition Beam. IIRC, the last and only time it happened was on June 1st, a week ago in-story.

I wonder if the Trust Password would work if Kyon says the line by phone. If so, he could give her a call every night and then while they are unobserved and no one would notice their absence (except for Yuki, Ryouko and probably Kuyou, that's it).

Somewhat related, it's just me or the Trust Password gets Haruhi and Kyon teleported before he completes the line (Tsuruya didn't seem to hear it in SB-2, for example). That's good thinking, IMO. In that way the Trust Password can remain secret even if he has to say it in front of an enemy or if they use an insecure communication medium, like a telephone line in the above hypothesis.

Also:

Haruhi: Funny, I wonder why I don't feel jealous of being left out of the daily trainings anymore.
Kyon: *studies suddenly fascinating floor tile*

My K:BDH Recursive Fanfiction

Kyon would also share Ayumu's sentiments on the costume.

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You know, someone should frame that tile and put it in a museum, seeing it's so fascinating.

edited 19th Jan '12 6:49:59 AM by Filraen

Kyon: Big Damn Hero: timeline & trailer