Game Gourmet: Food count minimum

So, I'm the one who created Game Gourmet, and I've been wondering if maybe, just maybe, the minimum number of food items should either be lowered or vary depending on length or genre.

To start with, this Japanese N64 game called Kiratto Kaiketsu: 64 Tanteidan was the game from which I finalized the number of food items required to pass (10) when I launched the trope without initially setting a minimum, based on the number of food-type special items I could count from having played that game so many times. Its number of regular food items is 6, and I explicitly stated that as not the actual example, just wicking it now to Well, This Is Not That Trope.

When I first proposed the trope, I ruled EarthBound Zero right out, having only six different food items compared to over fifty in Earthbound.

Right now, though, I am wondering if maybe I should lower the minimum based on genre. In particular, The Punisher and this other arcade Beat 'em Up called Night Slashers both have 7^note not counting the latter's elixir, since potions aren't really food per se different items, and Captain Commando has 8, which they all present in more or less the same way as Final Fight, and might qualify if not for such a limit as intended to keep two of the aforementioned off the page, especially since Final Fight 2 and 3 just barely qualify with 11 and the required 10 respectively.

Some of you might argue that beat 'em ups are a simpler genre than RPGs, which is why the standard naturally would be higher for Earthbound Zero. However, Kiratto Kaiketsu is a simple board game, and only has enough regular food items (again, that's 6, one less than those few) to diversify between +30 and full HP and/or KP (Kiratto Points) recoveries or a random stat boost. Even back to beat 'em ups, a game like Mighty Final Fight cannot qualify, with only four different food items.

I do understand the concept of making slight allowances, and that 10 should simply be a guideline, but might anyone have suggestions for additional guidelines on allowing the aforementioned beat 'em ups on while keeping Kiratto Kaiketsu's regular menu and EB0 off?

edited 6th May '18 5:02:38 AM by SeaRover

My opinion is that anything lower than 10 is not numerous enough, so keep it that way.

Just posted to Tropes Are Flexible.

I will admit, 10 is actually my least favorite number (my favorite being 12), since it is way overused in general, but yeah, since this wiki is meant for public use, we probably should go with a nice round number that just about everyone can agree upon, while maybe allowing for games just slightly failing, as per the purpose of this wiki (i.e. to list works utilizing a given gimmick, for anyone interested in even modest use thereof), w/ an absolute minimum of 7. Considering that those few games still went out of their way to showcase more food than necessary, unlike, say, Streets of Rage, which only had apples and roast chickens, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify in their own right.

Number should not be the only issue, though. There's also The Simpsons, which had the same number of different items, but much fewer and further between overall (like, barely one or two items on each level, whereas each of the main Final Fight games had a plethora of combined food and bonus^note Even the SNES and GBA versions of game 1 had only eight, which is still enough to seem like an assortment. items throughout just five or six levels apiece).

Will try to sort out, and come back later to describe, the deal w/ the two non-beat-em'-ups.

edited 6th May '18 9:48:57 AM by SeaRover

Might elaborate further later if necessary, but for now...

Thing about EarthBound Zero and Kiratto Kaiketsu, as with Streets of Rage and Mighty Final Fight, is that the creators seemed to go for just enough to fulfill an actual gameplay purpose.

In EB0, there are only six different food items altogether, with only one or two each to recover a given amount of HP, ranging from 10, 20, 50, and 100. One of these only exists for the alternate purpose of returning quickly to a given location, and another can only be obtained in two locations, with its true purpose being as a gift for three NPCs late in the game. In any other game, these could just as easily have been potions or herbs; it is the setting (modern America) that requires they be food instead.

Kiratto Kaiketsu has the same issue. All the creators had on mind by creating food at all, were differences between partial (30) and full recoveries, HP and KP recoveries, dual and normal recoveries, and a miscellaneous purpose. They were probably thinking, what else would one recover health or special points in such a setting as a virtual mansion to play detective games in?

edited 6th May '18 9:30:38 AM by SeaRover

Seems like you're no longer talking about variety there.

My point with this thread is about what would constitute a variety in games with less than a dozen different items. Surely, minor numerical differences between games can't be the only factor here. Even without a "magic number" for the minimum, it is still fairly obvious that the creators of The Punisher (Capcom) and Night Slashers did go out of their way to provide a variety of food to eat throughout the game, w/ some items recovering similar amounts of health to others, modeled from Final Fight, something that was not accomplished with Streets of Rage or Mighty Final Fight.

In short, some kind of proper litmus test might be in order.

edited 6th May '18 5:28:19 PM by SeaRover

I think a loose lower limit of 10 is fine. If it seems like the trope isn't thriving, it might be that examples aren't being listed or that it's a naturally rarer trope. I don't think it matters much to try and justify games with a smaller item pool just to get a few more examples to qualify. Generally speaking, food variety in a game is more of a nice aesthetic as opposed to something that greatly affects the gameplay in a significant manner, so most games will take the route of keeping their item list efficient.

edited 6th May '18 8:38:20 PM by YourIdeas

Okay, that settles it. Just didn't want to seem hypocritical or flip-floppy by adding them, although I do understand that tropes are amendable whenever the need arises (one of the purposes behind this forum). They're now up, along with a labelnote in the first guideline.

Thanks, guys.

Btw, you think I should make a list somewhere of games that don't qualify and why? Complete Monster already has something similar behind its opening post of a Long Term/Perpetual thread.

Here's what I'm thinking:

• Earthbound Beginnings: Too minimal for its genre. Only six, which recover four different amounts of HP, and two of which serve alternate purposes.

• Kiratto Kaiketsu: 64 Tanteidan: Key items qualify, but the regular catalog has only six, created with only a few differences on mind.

• Mighty Final Fight: The main trilogy already just barely pushed the minimum with only a dozen^note Game 1 does have much more to offer in its arcade and Sega CD versions, but not on the Super NES or Game Boy Advance. per game. Four is too easy to keep track of even just subconsciously amid fast-paced gameplay.

• Panic Restaurant: This trope is about eating in video games, directly or indirectly by player decisions, not simply featuring food itself. That game features food mostly as enemies, and allowing it would invite similar examples from non-video-game media, turning it into a clone of Food Porn. This is not Level Ate, game-scale or otherwise.

• Super Mario RPG: Most emphasis is on drinks. All else there is are mushrooms (simply colored differently), Honey Syrups (and two recolors), and Yoshi Candy. (Both types of cookies in the game are summoning items, and Rock Candy is an attack item.)

edited 7th May '18 6:31:15 AM by SeaRover

Okay, I just spoke to Fighteer, and he told me something like a separate page won't be necessary just to list non-examples.

Will need to figure out how to communicate the reasons I specified for each game, so as to prevent the trope from falling apart.

It might be that the trope page just needs to be updated to be more specific about what it is. The way I see it, the trope is in play if a game:

• Has extra food items that do the same thing as similar items (eg. a pizza and a burger both health 20 health).

• If the food items are there as a collectible mechanic, needed to get 100%, etc.

• Removing these extra food items from the game wouldn't have a major impact on the item list, as many of them are either redundant or strictly worse than other items.

With the Super Mario RPG example, I'd argue Game Gourmet isn't a thing here. Mushrooms are this game's equivalent of potions, Syrups its equivalent of Ethers. The drinks in the game have effects that don't overlap with each other and if they do, it's a late game upgrade like Able Juice vs. Freshen Up (one recovers status to one party member, the other to the entire party). There's quite a number of silly joke mushroom healing items like Wilt Shroom, a Mushroom that gives you the mushroom status, etc. but you aren't making an arbitrary choice like "I'll drink this syrup inside of this juice because I feel like it". They have different uses on the game.

In short, the food item list in Super Mario RPG is (mostly) efficient as most of them have a use at some part of the game or a unique mechanic not shared by another item. There's some joke foods strewn around but they're all mushrooms.

Then take an example like Video Game/Minecraft. There's a lot of different food items in the game and they nearly all do the same thing: restore your hunger/saturation. There's several ways to stay full in the game and even if a cow/pig farm is the most efficient way of going about it, you could choose to stay topped up with carrots, pumpkin pies, etc. if you wanted to. The food items could be reduced greatly and mechanically, the game wouldn't be all that different, though there'd be a lot less fun/flavor if you were involuntarily stuck to a single food item to eat.

edited 7th May '18 7:53:22 PM by YourIdeas

Okay, fixed the guidelines up, and modified the second one to cover for what you just specified.

(As an aside, single-word titles (and trope names) are require {{ and }} around them after the /, in order to be displayed properly. Meant to mention that as well in the PM I sent you.)