Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

I've not played the game, but I just happened to come across this one on UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Video Games:

• Eveline from Resident Evil 7: Biohazard was engineered to be a Walking Wasteland bioweapon and programmed to desire a family as a means of spreading her infection. Pretty sad setup, but when a character is lashing out at injustice and wants to keep the audience on their side, it's really important to set the amount of sadistic cruelty, arrogant taunting, and evil laughter they display as close to zero as possible. Eveline uses all three of those things to an excess, making it clear that she's well aware of the pain and suffering she causes, and that she enjoys it. When Eveline whiningly asks why everyone hates her near the end, many players had no trouble giving an answer.

Now, there's a good point about her not being particularly sympathetic, but I'm not really seeing why players are expected to agree with her, especially considering what the rest of the description says. Anyone who's played the game wants to clarify?

YMMV.Until Dawn has two examples:

• Unintentionally Sympathetic:
  • Plenty of fans find Josh Washington significantly more sympathetic and likable than the narrative treats him, with his mental illness and Freudian Excuse mitigating some of his behavior along with the point that despite how dangerous and horrifying his plans were, he never actually intended to get anyone killed.
  • As mean as the original prank was, you can't completely blame them for Hannah's overreaction and decision to run into a mysterious forest during a blizzard in the middle of the night. At the same time, you can't blame Hannah for acting out in a panic after being led on by her crush and publicly embarrassed.

This one I am more familiar with, and my impression is that both of those are meant to be more morally ambiguous than the examples claim. That is, it's not an unintentional aspect of it. The latter is more clear cut to me, since the example presents both sides of it, and in each case pretends we're supposed to take the opposite extreme option.

The first one is a bit more ambiguous, but I think that's the point. There's a whole lot of tragegy in it, and compared to the actual intent, I don't think this is supposed to be a case of no sympathy.

Anyone?

The second Until Dawn example is a definite cut. If you're listing both sides, it's likely they were both meant to be sympathetic.

• Superboy Prime. He's supposed to be a Tragic Villain for having lost his world, and driven mad to the point of wanting to destroy the world to replace it with a new one. Most people instead see him as a snot-nosed brat who has murdered countless people left and right, including at one point killing a pregnant woman in cold blood, and constantly blaming all of Earth's heroes for the horrible crimes he causes by claiming they've corrupted him.

His being listed as a Hate Sink and Complete Monster is a big strike against it being unintentional. This entry predates the distinction between Hate Sink and Scrappy. Cut?

It doesn't sound like he's supposed to be sympathetic. Cut.

UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Video Games:

• In Super Paper Mario, we have the main antagonist, Count Bleck, who intends to destroy existence with the Dark Prognostics. We learn over the course of the game that he lost his love a long time ago and searched the dimensions everywhere for her. Said love is actually Tippi, Mario's Pixl companion, who used to be a human woman called Timpani. When Blumiere's father found out he intended to marry her, he banished Tippi to another dimension to die. When Count Bleck learned of this, he stole the Dark Prognostics, destroyed his dimension and intended to bring about the end of existence. Later on, he realises he's gone too far and seems to regret what he started, but says it's too late to go back. Thing is, it's still really selfish of him to basically throw a cosmic temper tantrum because his girlfriend died, he doesn't really try at all to find a possible way of stopping the prophecy or does much to help Mario and co, and it seems like he only starts to feel guilty when he senses she might still be alive. Even when Dimentio reveals himself as the true Big Bad and admits to nudging things along, it doesn't excuse what Bleck did and it's strongly implied he killed or at least banished his own father, the perpetrator of his pain anyway. It can feel to many players like Bleck got off far too lightly considering all the destruction he caused, especially since he gets to be Together in Death with Timpani at the end of the game.

This was cut before. At least, I feel it can be trimmed if this is a valid example. Thoughts?

I'm very leery of that. It pretty much reads like because his soul wasn't condemned for all eternity, he got off light and is therefore supposed to be an entirely sympathetic character. Granted, I'm not familiar with that plot and it may just be clumsy writing, but as it stands it pretty much seems like someone isn't satisfied by how much a character is punished. The example doesn't mention how sympathetic he's supposedly characterised as, and instead just lists a few things he's done and some of his mental state. Based on that, I don't see how he comes off as significantly more or less sympathetic than he's supposed to.

Cut. A lot of fans find Count Bleck to be sympathetic and it just comes off as someone complaining about him not receiving as harsh as a punishment as they would have liked.

From UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Gravity Falls:

• Ford Pines, Stan's brother tend to lose a lot of sympathy for his actions depending on which side of the fans you ask:
  • For starters he was perfectly okay with his parents kicking Stan out when he was no younger than 17 all because of an honest mistake he made (In fact, he never seemed to realize that his emotionally abusive father only cared about his talents and successes to become rich more than anything, though failure to come to terms with and reject their abusive parents' methods and influence is a flaw of Stanley's as well), and then had the audacity to only call Stan back into his life because he needed a favor-almost 13 years later. And when Stanley objects to this treatment, Ford proceeds to rub his failures in his face and doesn't seem to understand or care what Stanley had been through by his rants.
  • After Stanley spent thirty years to bring him back, Ford's first act after returning is to punch him. Yes, Ford ended up in the portal in the first place thanks to Stan's mistake; yes, Stan has been impersonating Ford and using his old lab as a tourist trap for the last thirty years; yes, he's ended up getting the unwanted attention of The Men in Black; and yes, it's soon revealed that by ignoring Ford's warnings and using the portal Stan has inadvertently given Bill Cipher a means to invade reality. All of this is understandable... except for the fact that none of this would have happened if Ford had been able to see past his self-imposed mission and realize that treating Stan purely as a means to get one of the Journals out of Gravity Falls was inevitably going to upset him - especially considering the two of them had been estranged for almost 13 years - hence the fight that ended with Ford accidentally getting shoved into the portal.
  • Ford's refusal to forgive or thank Stan at the end of the episode only soured first impressions further. Later episodes helped to soften Ford's character and make him more sympathetic, but his continued refusal to reconcile with Stan - combined with his short-sighted disregard for Mabel's feelings - was a sore point for many fans.
  • The finale eventually hauled him further out of the Scrappy Heap by demonstrating the lengths he was prepared to go to in order to save the world and keep Dipper and Mabel safe, and even concluded with the two brothers finally reconciling and embarking on their dream of traveling the world in pursuit of mysteries and treasure. Only problem? While most agree that the scene in which Ford is forced to erase Stan's memories in order to destroy Bill is undeniably heartbreaking, some fans believe that the resolution to their dispute left too many underlying issues unaddressed.
• On the other hand, Stan himself can also come off as this. The show excuses a lot of his more questionable actions because he did them for the good of his family, despite them still being pretty selfish even in that context. Notable is that Stan risked the entire world in his efforts to save his brother, knowing that there was a distinct possibility that the portal could destroy the world (thus killing said family) if operated improperly, not to mention all the injuries the gravity fluctuation could have caused, particularly to the young and elderly. It didn't, but Stan had no way of being sure of that. Also he didn't even bother to tell the others why exactly he wants to activate the portal which caused needless amount of conflict along with trust issues from the Pines family and Soos. Either way, Stan still seems to acknowledge that his more selfish actions always have consequences, and he's not always good at making up for them even when he's trying his hardest.]] And let's not forget that, while it's played for laughs, he made a living out of conning people out of their money.
• Blendin Blandin. Viewers are meant to (and the characters in the show do) sympathize and feel bad for what fate befalls him but the truth is, he truly is awful at his job and the idea that the twins getting him fired is anything but a good thing is silly. When they end up getting him reinstated, he screws up again and leads to the death of Time Baby and the whole time police, while Blendin himself slips away unscathed.

I think these were added by the subject of this cleanup.

Ford and Stan, they call each other out on these points Ford's argues with itself, and Stan self-aware such it's played for laughs. Ford gets some All There in the Manual explanation for his hostility, so there might be a point there. This sounds like intentional moral grayness as opposed to anything unintentional. Blendin seems legit, but said All There in the Manual source stats he's trapped in the past, which may or may not be considered karma. Thoughts?

Yeah, Blendin seems possibly legit. The other two, no. Even from that biased mess I can see that they're not meant to be morally white or black. With so many counterpoints to both of them, and most of it relating to each other, it's hard to take that example as anything but complaining.

I'd keep blendin personally and cut the rest as there's intentional moral ambiguity with the others.

Does Gravity Falls even deserve it's own page now? I intend to condense it to three bullets, too few to warrant It's own page in my experience.

I think the page can be cut, especially since you'll be condensing the examples!

"then had the audacity to only call Stan back into his life because he needed a favor-almost 13 years later."

That's kinda downplaying the fact that said "favor" is about saving the world. Granted Ford could have been nicer but that not like he asked money for selfish reasons.

Per above recommendations, I've cut-listed Gravity Falls page and move the valid, updated example to the appropriate places. Anything else?

Found this on Re:Zero: Subaru is hated even by many fans of the series, considering him an overly stupid, silly schoolboy who makes mistakes even in those moments, where another common person has remained in place. Moreover, even when Subaru begins to win, he does it not because of his analytical abilities, but only because he knows the enemy's actions in advance.

Does this sound like complaining?

Also worth noting these entries that may clash with the above example:

• Base-Breaking Character: Subaru has become the biggest one in the fandom as the series has progressed:
  • The first point of contention regarding him is his non-reaction to being transported to another world. Some people don't mind it and consider it's not important to the story as it is. Other people find it ridiculously unrealistic even by fantasy setting standards, and that it sets Subaru's character for a very bad start. Among readers of the LN it's a bit better, since the issue is at least addressed, albeit not really explored.
  • Albeit at first the split was more or less moderate, it became much larger since the start of the third arc (starting in the 12th episode). One half of it despise him for his idiotic behavior, his quasi-stalkerish obsession over Emilia and his stupid choices, who leads to him (and others) to go into troubles. Plus, many argue that those idiotic choices are plot-driven, instead of character-driven. Or in other words, "Subaru behaves like an idiot when it's convenient for the plot", which is a pretty common comment among detractors. The other half likes the guy because how realistic they find his behavior and defend that Subaru acts like a flawed human being rather than acting like an idealized, typical fantasy world protagonist. Episode 16 only added more fuel to the fire, as his rage clouding his mind made him do, in some people's eyes, even more stupid decisions.
  • More in general, people put Subaru's motivations into question, particularly those regarding Emilia. Supporters claim they're perfectly understandable, since they have more than enough interaction for Subaru to genuinely fall in love with her, and it creates a solid foundation for the story to brutally depict Subaru's character archetype. Some compare this to how people can become infatuated with others, and blindly "loving" someone for shallow or little reason. Especially in episode 14, where Emilia mentions, "the version of me inside of you must be amazing", which many supporters say is justified, since Subaru has seen Emilia in more ways and has had more intimate moments with her throughout his loops that she's not aware of, but Subaru is. Detractors, on the other hand, disagree that they have enough chemistry to justify Subaru going to such lengths for her, which coupled with his aforementioned non-reaction to being in a different world, makes him feel artificial. And that's BEFORE including Rem in the equation, which takes things Up To Eleven.
  • In particular, since the second half of the show, many viewers complained about Emilia growing into a Living MacGuffin and the nature of her and Subaru's relationship/his love for her being little more than explicable religious fanaticism, while Rem being the fan favorite character formally remained on the sidelines, even after Subaru confessed his love equally to both girls. Eventually, feeling Subaru to her remains poorly motivated even when Emilia starts to develop a well illustrated reciprocal feelings. At the same time, some Rem fans seems quite satisfied with such author's superficial attitude to the line of Subaru and Emilia, believing that much more concretized SubaRem attitude can give hope for future better chances for Rem, than at the moment.
  • Did his breakdown in episode 13 show that he was an entitled dick or was it just him grasping for straws as his mental trauma surfaced due to the sudden fear of being abandoned, rendering all his former suffering for naught and then leaving him alone with it?
  • At the end of the third arc, Subaru decided to start taking things more seriously and become a true hero, and manages to succeed, with some help, in defeating the White Whale and the Witch's Cult. Many fans are up in arms about this being the typical self-insert harem protagonist played straight and claim it to be the worst incarnation of Subaru of all because he's not losing. Others claim that his development is realistic and doesn't go into tensei hero territory, and after all that has happened to him over the course of the story, letting the poor guy succeed and save the ones he cares about is the least the writer could do. People that know the actual ending to Arc 3 that the anime has yet to cover is one of the main sticking points against this point of view.
  • The above point brings to light the fandom's divide on Subaru's successes. Some fans believe that Subaru having some success here or there doesn't detract from the story's dark elements, and are okay with him making things better before he's gut punched by the next Diabolus ex Machina. Others are against the very idea of Subaru succeeding at anything, winning any conflict, or even learning to be a better person because they see that as playing into a standard Isekai series.
• Iron Woobie: While the frequency of his deaths and other traumatic encounters do not exactly decrease, Subaru does get better at dealing with them as the story progresses.
• The Woobie: Considering all the horrible things Subaru goes through the story it becomes pretty easy to feel sorry for the poor guy.

The Base Breaking entry is far too long to be valid. Even if it was it should be trimmed down. To me, its complaining.

So guys I kind of want to cut this page Here. It is for a fanfic, which is already a concern because usually the only people who write fanfic trope pages are one or two people total but the tone of the rest pages is very negative. It is clear that the person who created the trope page is biased toward the work in a negative way, and boy, do they let it show. There is just as much bashing of the author as the work itself. It reminds me of the Sonichu page back in the day. I'll submit it to the negativity thread soon. But to be on the safe side I'll link the page to get a thumbs up or down should it be cut-listed.

• Stone Heart in Writer's Blockade and Write a Wrong. In the first story, we are meant to feel sorry for him because his best friend ended up with the woman he loved and, in both stories, because no one supports his writing. However, he came off as more of a creepy stalker in the first story to the girl he liked (such as writing her as the love interest in his stories and not understanding what the big deal was when she asked him to stop); furthermore, when his life-long friends tried to help him, he interpreted it as an insult and cut ties with them, demonstrating how little he cared for them. Additionally, in both stories, he expects people to accept his writing and treat it as good despite all the flaws in it, just because it's what he wants to write. He adamantly refuses to accept any form of constructive criticism, only to turn around and blame everyone else for his failures. It really says something about Stone Heart when he fits four out of five requirements for being The Sociopath (only missing out on being a liar and manipulator).
• Needle Stitch/Manny Collars in Fallout Fashions. Presumably, we're meant to see him as sympathetic because he was "betrayed" by his extremely close friend Rarity when she took credit for a dress design he made for her except not only did Rarity regret the decision and apologize, she went out of her way to discontinue the dress thus risking a major PR disaster as a way to make it up to him... and Manny still refused to forgive her even after she helps his newly opened store get a lot of business. Manny's incredibly petty and unnecessarily complex way of dealing with the situation doesn't help. He changed his identity and got rid of his cutie mark simply because Rarity helped him get it.
• Strings in Love Doesn't Work That Way. He's meant to be seen as sympathetic because he loves Cadance who he can never be with which is affecting his mental health. Instead, he comes off as a pathetic loser who refuses to move on from a foalhood crush. It doesn't help he's planning to move away to get away from Cadance and doesn't even plan on telling his close friend Sun Rae (who has an obvious crush on him that he completely misses) until the last possible second.
• Talon Ted in Pride and Punishment. It's not a good sign when the character we're supposed to side with can instead be interpreted as a narcissistic psychopath. There's also his complete refusal to make anything of his life simply because things are not going the way he specifically wants them to, only feeling satisfied when he gets someone else without a degree to do all the work for him.
• Count Logan once again makes his way here; he's still supposed to come off as sympathetic to audiences (or at least to Mykan) in spite of his atrocious misdeeds, which is kind of hard to do as his visit to Equestria results in him ripping off a baby alicorn's head. The author tries to justify Logan's actions as him being possessed by the Dark Prognosticus, which in turn was only made possible by Beast Boy being an unbearably wangsty asshat to begin with. In addition, this explanation falls completely flat given that Logan has several moments in the story that suggest he's at least partly in control of his actions, and none of those have him expressing any amount of remorse. Mykan has recently tried to backpedal and say Logan is cursed, not possessed, but all of the same issues are still there. (Not to mention he's refused to acknowledge he ever said he was possessed in the first place.)
• Helper Soul. We're meant to see him as sympathetic because he lost the use of his leg in an accident which he blames his former best friend Night Light for which cost him his royal guard aspirations. Except Helper lost that leg saving Night Light from a life or death situation, making him look more petty than sympathetic. It doesn't help he's yet another character who's bitter over the fact he Did Not Get the Girl. Another big issue is that his backstory is ripped off from Master Org, one of the most evil villains in Power Rangers... and Mykan still expects you to find him sympathetic. It's for these reasons he's seen as less of a victim of circumstance and more of an Asshole Victim.
• Davis is meant to be seen as sympathetic because Kari doesn't wanna be with him and he's in love with her. The thing that has him fall into this category is that he turns it into a much bigger deal than it would have been and he won't stop complaining about it. He also has almost literally dozens of other girls who are interested in him but he very callously rejects them all because "They aren't Kari", making him look incredibly shallow. One could even make the argument he's less sympathetic than the above-mentioned Beast Boy. At least with Beast Boy, you could make the argument that he's taking it badly because Terra wants nothing to do with him (It still doesn't work but there's a better case to be made) but Kari still wants to be Davis's friend even if they aren't a couple, making Davis look incredibly petty.

Edited by DocJamore on Sep 18th 2018 at 1:39:29 PM

Just letting you know that I brushed up on the example for Mabel for now! Anyone else can check it out too: I rephrased it, but it ended up being a bit longer since I put more focus on what happened in Gravity Falls: Lost Legends—if it seems out of place, I guess someone can trim it down.

Found this under Arthur.YMMV

"DW, in "Arthur's Big Hit" and in a few others. Even in the episodes where she has some justifiable reason for being bratty, she tends to take it so far that it's impossible to sympathize with her. This is not made better by all the times she doesn't have an excuse, and just felt like being irritating - it makes her seem less like she's acting up because of the issue at hand and more like her already-horrible behavior is just being exacerbated by said issue. A number of viewers also cheered when Arthur punched D.W. for harassing him and then trashing his model plane in the aforementioned Arthur's Big Hit, because in addition to being her usual annoying self she was stupid enough to think the model was a toy that could fly."

While DW is indeed The Scrappy amongst older, longtime fans of the show as in the Periphery Demographic, she's actually pretty popular with the younger fans and this kinda seems a bit like complaining.

Also found this during my sweep of the Ace Attorney pages.

Dee Vasquez in the third case. Yes, her killing of Jack Hammer was only a Crime of Self-Defense, and she's also heavily implied to have cared deeply for previously killed actor Manuel. However, Hammer only attacked her because she'd been Blackmailing him for most-likely-accidentally causing Manuel's death, and she's also a ruthless Mafia Princess known to "silence" people — almost including Phoenix and Maya themselves, no less. Many players can't help but wish Hammer had actually succeeded in ridding the world of her. By extension, Jack Hammer is a little hard to feel sympathy for. While he had suffered immensely under Vasquez's blackmail over what, by all accounts, was simply a horrific accident, and while he's clearly meant to be portrayed as a Sympathetic Attempted Murderer pushed to his breaking point as a result, his attempt to frame Will Powers for the murder over nothing but him getting to play the hero and getting endless adoration from the kids while he was saddled with playing the villain tips him firmly into Asshole Victim category for a lot of players.

And this from Justice for All.

While he's very popular with others, some fans didn't like how much Acro was being played as a Sympathetic Murderer. For example, Video Games Awesome! and their commenters noted that while he didn't mean to kill the ringmaster, he did intend to kill the ringmaster's daughter. The sympathy is supposed to come from regretting he killed the ringmaster, who he saw as a father, and yet he was still willing to murder that man's only child. To be fair, she was still directly responsible for accidentally putting Bat into a coma and then not understanding how serious it was, but Acro apparently never considered just yelling at her and making her see reality the way Moe later did, and instead jumped right to an elaborate murder attempt... which didn't even work because she was too clueless to understand she was being threatened. It's quite telling that the 3DS re-release changed some of the dialogue to tone down the forced sympathy, one of the most obvious changes being Edgeworth's line "Do me a favor and try not to be too harsh on Acro" being changed to "As for Mr. Acro's case, you need not worry," which is closer to the Japanese script.

Edited by Klavice on Sep 18th 2018 at 9:00:46 AM

DW should be cut if it's only the Periphery Demographic that doesn't sympathize with her. As for the Ace Attorney examples: remove Dee Vasquez since I doubt she was intended to be sympathetic since she is never treated that way within the game IIRC. Also, remove Acro since the entry mentions he's popular and it uses the Weasel Words, "some fans didn't like".

Edited by ADrago on Sep 18th 2018 at 12:42:57 PM

I've seen Arthur's Big Hit and I think DW qualifies.

DW is the first I've heard of Unintentionally Unsympathetic needing to apply to the target audience. That would leave a lot of examples suspect, Including the Friendship is Failure ones.

YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 5 E 19 Crusaders Of The Lost Mark:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: While the episode did its best to portray Diamond Tiara with a Freudian Excuse and wanting to change for the better, several people still felt that it didn't excuse a lot of the mean-spirited, selfish, acts she's done of kicking the dog on her own accord.

This episode gave her a uncontested improvement in popularity. So does it count or just a nitpick covered by Base-Breaking Character?

YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 8 E 26 School Raze Part 2:

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: As evil as Cozy Glow is, some people think her punishment of being locked up in Tartarus when she's just a filly puts her into this.
• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Or, even if it doesn't make one sympathize with her, it at least makes the heroes this for resorting to something this extreme. Especially Luna, who has been in a similar situation, banished to the Moon by Celestia. Many have even wondered why the show staff didn't make her a grown mare instead to make the Tartarus punishment less horrible.

Should this point be condensed to one trope or the other?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Sep 19th 2018 at 6:59:59 AM

How in the hell would the heroes be unsympathetic for sending someone who almost doomed their world worse than Tirek and refused to redeem themselves?

Definitely cut both as Cozy was given the chance to redeem herself and chose not to. If anything the only hypocritical one would be Discord and even he wasn't as bad as she was.

The issue is why do something as drastic as sending them to Tartarus as opposed to a normal correctional facility, notify Cozy's family about this (if they didn't mind, that would explain a lot), or figure out why she became so messed up? I've seen this come up enough it's a legit example of something, if not those tropes what?

And it "dooming the world worse" is shown how?

I think the issue here is people are sympathizing with her because she's really young and an Enfant Terrible. For example, if the Big Bad of Ace Attorney 3 was like... 10 when she committed her first crime, then I would probably see more people saying she didn't deserve the death penalty.

Cozy is very similar to Pokey/Porky Minch as despite her young age she's a little bit sociopathic. The only reason people defend her is because they've damned a child to hell. But remember monstrous kids in fiction do exist (Henry from The Good Son to name one). I think they thought she was past the point a correctional facility would do any good.

I'd say in that case, keep Unintentionally Sympathetic but axe the Unsympathetic as they had to make it so Cozy wouldn't plot with Tirek as a pen pal again and have magic disappear. She even also almost killed all of the young six who are implied to be teens at the oldest by dropping them from the clouds through her magic draining. The fact that she shows no remorse for any of this also contributes to why I don't see the Mane Six, Celestia, Neighsay, Luna, etc as unsympathetic.