How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

There are some necrons that are sentient and have goals other than exterminating all life. Ergo, it is now possible for some necrons to be good in theory.

The newcrons are all over the map-some of them are either insane, mindless, or trying to restore the Necrontyr Empire by exterminating everyone else. A few others are reasonable, moreso than any other Xenos ally the Imperium might find, like Szarekh. Then there are the oddballs like Trazyn, where it literally depends on what they feel like doing that week.

I thought the Necrons had more personality when they had no personality, y'know? Just felt more distinctive. Like, the Necron Lords might have individual personalities of their own, in an And I Must Scream sort of way, and the C'tan certainly did, but their being unable to communicate or act independently was horrifying in a way that was unique to them.

Likewise, later editions of the Tau emphasize how it's kind of an Orwellian state, but I thought that their tiny population size and utter naivete were enough of an albatross around their collective necks without their needing to be internally corrupt from the start as well.

And the thing a lot of Imperium cheerleaders love sweeping under the rug is the amount of discord inside the empire itself. All-out war between the various armies of the Imperial Guard isn't uncommon, the Space Marines kill anyone, human or xeno, who gets in their way, and all this even without an order of Exterminatus which could just as easily be politically motivated rather than based on preserving human 'purity'. The Imperium of Man was designed from the ground up to be as broken and fractious as possible. It takes a significant amount of blinkered self-deception to unironically view the faction as anything to be emulated. Of course, people do anyway, which is...well, not all that surprising, sadly.

edited 13th Oct '17 7:49:15 PM by Unsung

Which is weird, as not even the books that have sympathetic Imperium characters gloss over the horrifying aspects of it.

Eisenhorn highlights how internally divided the Inquisition is and Gaunt regularly has to deal with parts of the Imperium that are either incompetent or outright treacherous.

edited 12th Oct '17 6:26:41 PM by DrunkenNordmann

Ciaphas Cain is definitely a more humorous take on the whole thing, but the whole premise is that Cain is more or less an Only Sane Man for not being into the whole insane martyrdom culture the Imperium fosters in its populace but derides himself as a coward for it.

I think on the whole that some of the best writers have managed to keep a balance between "the Imperium and its agents is doing what it has to do to survive" (the fascism apologia, if you will) while still keeping that "but they're still unrelenting and overly zealous bigots" part (the fascism rebuttal, so to speak).

Even Ciaphas Cain, usually the Only Sane Man, has moments of Imperium-indoctrinated bigotry from time to time.

The main difference between the Imperium and RL fascist regimes is that the threats the Imperium face are real. Fascists usually scapegoat and use the 'othering' of foreign threats and domestic minorities to rally support, maintain unity, and keep authority. They tend to make it up, or grossly exaggerate it. Of course, modern populist supporters tend to swallow those lies hook line and sinker, so I don't think that reminding them that the Imperium's enemies are real will actually help very much, and so I would actually like to see the Imperium get portrayed in a more villanous light sometimes, or at least in a Blue-and-Orange Morality light of: survival is everything.

On the other hand, imperium soporter tend to forget the same imperium is their own enemy as well.

is this weird question: how much the imperium was push into this, and how much is their fault? here is were things get weird since the answer have move one depending of the writers.

So I've been wondering on something. We've talked about how writers and directors' politics can color their work on this thread but what about actors' own politics influencing their characters? For instance, when I watched Chuck the first time, I was unaware of any of Adam Baldwin's views (boy was I lucky). Now re-watching the show, I'm not sure where Adam Badlwin ends and John Casey the character he plays begins.

So one of the the recent episode of the Flash has drawn some ire for it's handling of race in regards to American indigenous people.

https://blackgirlnerds.com/the-flash-falls-into-white-savior-trope-with-introduction-of-black-bison/

The episode introduces the character of Mina Chaytan aka Black Bison, a Lakota woman with the power to animate effigies (statues of predatory cats, suits of armor, etc.). With these abilities she starts retrieving the objects sacred to her people. She does this through any means she deems necessary including killing people just for being in her way. Not helping is how the show has Ralph Diby, a sexist white man, repeatedly talking down to her about what is right and wrong.

Basically, the episode plays into the both ugly stereotypes of Native Americans and stereotypes about activists (especially activists of color). Every time people of color gather to protest their rights, they are met with violence themselves and their actions (no matter how peaceful) are described as barbaric, violent etc. Yet here we have the show endorsing this view of activists of color. Not helping is this is the universe where white men like Slade and Malcolm can get away with even the most horrendous of crimes.

I'm kinda of surprised how unnoticed DC's handling of Qurac was.

First of all with the fictional european dictatorships in DC comics, its treated as if the dictator is to blame for the country's state and the citizens are treated as victims. But with fictional middle eastern nations like Qurac, even the ordinary citizens are depicted as to blame for example one of the heroes saying the rebellion is just as bad as the current dictator. Another example, for years, everyone in Qurac was depicted as evil, not even ordinary citizens were depicted sympathetically.

Then DC comics Anti-Hero, Cheshire nukes Qurac and she ultimately is Easily Forgiven for the whole thing. Many DC writers even try to say Qurac deserved being nuked as its citizens are apparently all "terrorists." Meanwhile, Supervillains who kill (white)loved ones of Super Heroes are treated as irredeemable in contrast to Cheshire, who basically committed genocide.

Then there's the fact that Qurac is based off Iran and more Unfortunate Implications come up.

edited 29th Dec '17 10:06:31 AM by Monsund

How much bad was show the poblation? All of them were violent and angry?

And wow, Chesire was still treat as redeemable after that? That just sounds awful in many levels.

A Million Is a Statistic is a factor there, at least so far as Cheshire's heinousness. The audience will always care more about about the fate of one named character than a billion nameless background extras. It's what makes "fate of the world" stories so overblown; most people can't really fathom the world; it's a scale that is impossible to emotionally connect with. They just care about how this will affect the specific characters that they like.

edited 29th Dec '17 11:19:04 AM by TobiasDrake

Um, Cheshire wasn't easily forgiven for nuking Qurac. She hasn't been forgiven at all. It's very much her "never live it down" moment.

And I don't recall anyone except Jade claiming that Qurac deserved to be nuked.

One might argue that committing an act of genocide onscreen shouldn't be a "never live it down" moment but, instead, a Moral Event Horizon from which a character is shunted into the Complete Monster pile, never to return.

I think Easily Forgiven tends to lean on Protagonist-Centered Morality and A Million Is a Statistic, and that's part of what I find irksome about it. A villain's crimes against the general public will be downplayed as they only harm redshirts, and they'll be treated as, effectively slights against the protagonists that the hero has to rise to forgive.

Personally, for some crimes (and particularly if the villain is still committing crimes) I'd argue that it's ironically a betrayal of compassion to easily forgive them. This is part of why Rude Heroes Polite Villains can work-evil can tolerate good a lot more than the other way around. For example, a child abuser doesn't necessarily care about the way a good parent treats their children. However, a good person is necessarily always offended by sufficiently acute child abuse.

It also doesn't help that Marvel and DC are ongoing sandbox universes with all of their characters and concepts shared by countless writers over a period of decades. Some writers just plain don't want to deal with the baggage that previous writers left characters with, and so things get abruptly swept under the rug that probably shouldn't.

Like, remember that time when the Scarlet Witch nearly exterminated the mutant race? Well, f*ck you, because that was years ago and nobody cares anymore.

The Qurac nuking is even older than that by more than a decade, so there's probably plenty of writers at DC who are just like, "Eh, who cares, I have new stuff to write."

edited 29th Dec '17 11:46:07 AM by TobiasDrake

RE: Kazuya Prota

Basically everyone in Qurac and other related fictional middle eastern countries like Bialya were depicted as evil terrorists and not coincidentally, unattractive.

One story has Captain Atom has him helping a rebellion in Bialya, only to say the rebels is just as bad for example. No one in the country is treated as country. Basically it carries the undercurrent that the problem with country is the genetics/culture of the people living there.

Again fictional European dictatorships in DC are shown as having a sympathetic population and instead have the heroes cursing the Dictator rather then the whole country.

RE: windleopard

The writers have repeatedly gone out of their way to say Cheshire nuked a "country of terrorists" and have claimed the survivors of Qurac all became radioactive Supervillains.

Cheshire maintains a Dating Cat Woman relationship with Roy Harper and a Quracian survivor(Chanda Madan) is literally portrayed as wrong for wanting Cheshire to be punished for committing genocide.

Also one should never live down committing genocide. Its one of the worst crimes a human can commit, it easily makes Cheshire worse then villains like Dr Light, but DC seems to think it doesn't matter because the victims weren't "white" and were from a "uncivilized country."

edited 29th Dec '17 12:26:50 PM by Monsund

Sounds like damage control for something truly unforgivable that a lot of writers would rather just forget, and possibly a behind-the-scenes fight between the people who liked Cheshire as a more nuanced character versus whoever it was that decided she should nuke a country. Kinda similar to what we were talking about with Magneto in the MCU thread, although Magneto was already more of an extremist to begin with. Not too familiar with Cheshire outside of Young Justice.

Yeah I should have used a better term. My bad.

That's just it. Cheshire wasn't easily forgiven for it. She wasn't forgiven at all. Nuking a country is the one thing she's known for besides being Roy Harper's baby mama.

I brought this up in the male roles vs female roles thread but there'a an odd discrepancy in the way Jade is treated in comparison to fellow Teen Titans villain Slade Wilson aka Deathstroke The Terminator.

Slade in his early appearances was pretty much an unambiguous scumbag, doing things like kidnapping Cyborg's girlfriend and deliberately endangering civilians to get away from the Titans. By contrast, Cheshire started off with some standards, trying to avoid collateral damage during her assassinations and even turned the tables on some racist white South Africans who had hired her to kill a black civil rights worker.

Now Cheshire is known as that woman who once nuked a country and Slade is treated as a noble demon despite the latter starting out as being more deplorable than the former. Even the fact that Slade has stuff like nuking Bludhaven and statutory rape on his conscience isn't enough to stop fans and writers alike from leather pantsing him. Jade at least gets treated as a scumbag but people actually debate on whether or not Slade is a villain with the Titans at several instances actually treating him as an ally.

Now consider the demographics the two villains belong to. Slade is a white American man while Cheshire is a Vietnamese woman who is also a former slave. It's no secret that superhero comics have a pretty ugly history with women and non-white people and this double standard in regards to Slade and Cheshire is a perfect illustration of that.

Did I mention that the writer who had Cheshire nuke Qurac, Marv Wolfman, also wrote The Judas Contract, in which Slade commits the aforementioned statutory rape and gets off scot free?

Cheshire hasn't been depicted as a nuanced character since that incedent. Just read Gail Simone's Secret Six.

edited 9th Mar '18 12:12:09 AM by windleopard

RE: Unsung

One still gets the impression that the writers wouldn't be so forgiving if it was a fictional european country though.

RE: windleopard

I can believe that Cheshire nuking Qurac whilst claiming racial justifications was Character Derailment, but, but how is she not Easily Forgiven?

The Qurac character in the link above was portrayed as misguided for wanting Cheshire to pay. That is Easily Forgiven in my opinion.

And while I'm not familiar with the Bludhaven, looking it up, it was apparently a small town/city, while Qurac is a nation whose population goes into the thousands.

Don't get me wrong, what Deathstroke did to Terra is disgusting and unforgivable, but personally I'd consider someone who murdered thousands of men, women, children and an entire ecosystem more heinous then a Hitman who sexually manipulated a 16 year old.

edited 29th Dec '17 12:38:34 PM by Monsund

I'm sure you're right, but it's the kind of 'event' writers loved to pull in the '90s. See: Hal Jordan, AKA Parallax. I'm not saying Qurac's not a horrible racist stereotype or that trivializing the nuking of any country just because it's foreign isn't fraught with Unfortunate Implications (especially post-9/11), but I can understand why people who liked Cheshire *before* she was a war criminal might wish they could just pretend that didn't happen for reasons other than not caring about the actual people in the Middle East. But I don't really know how you walk that back. I wish Decimation hadn't happened, myself..

Thinking about it, though, DC's really destroyed a lot of cities and countries (and planets) in mainline continuity, haven't they?

edited 29th Dec '17 8:57:47 PM by Unsung

Aside from Roy, who in the DCU universe likes Cheshire? She's mostly treated with hostility, contempt and distrust by almost everyone she interacts with. hell, before Cry For Justice derailed him, Roy had pretty much decided to cut her out of his life entirely. That Qurac survivor being angry at Cheshire is the only instance I'm aware of when it comes to people being angry at Cheshire for nuking Qurac being seen as in the wrong and yeah that is pretty awful. Then again, it was also a story written by Devin Grayson, the woman who wrote a story in which Dick Grayson was raped and then claimed it wasn't rape, so I wouldn't take it as typical of how Jade is typically treated by writers. See again, Gail Simone's Secret Six.

edited 29th Dec '17 12:48:42 PM by windleopard

I totally get Cheshire fans considering the nuking a country on racial grounds as Character Derailment and why new continuities like Young Justice mercifully leave it out.

My problem is how the writers sweep it under the rug withe absurd justifications like "terrorist country" and such.

And as far as I can tell, no other country in DC comics has been nuked, presented as "deserving it" & swept under the rug like Qurac was.

It feels a lot like the writers are saying their lives are innately worth much less then caucasian individuals.

There's also been similar issues in DC comic stories like the "A Death in the Family", a famous and very well received Batman story, which featured The Joker being named ambassador to Iran, later retconned into Qurac, who endorsed his terrorist activities. Complete with an Arabian Nights style costume, because Interchangeable Asian Cultures is at work.

See a panel here.

RE: Wind Leopard

Double Standard Rape: Female on Male seems to happen a lot, even in recent anime/comics, perhaps because most cultures are patriarchal, people assume a man can't be a victim?

Sort of. I'd argue it has to do with a few cultural concepts on sex and gender. Basically, the culture tends to propose that All Men Are Perverts, and that lust is morally wrong because sex is viewed as something that women don't want. Ergo a man who desires sex is considered a selfish person who wants to exploit and disempower women, and rape is the epitome of this form of evil.

A woman raping a man is subconsciously viewed as altruism. A Man Is Always Eager, so a man who doesn't seek out sex is seen as unselfish. Since women don't want sex, the female rapist is essentially unselfishly giving a man what they really want and are just too kind to request.

There are a lot of problems with how society views rape. The thing of it is, culturally we've declared that Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil but only if it's a very specific kind of rape in which a malevolent force of pure evil emerges from Satan's asshole and violently assaults a helpless woman. The patriarchy has deemed rape to be bad but attaches a huge list of asterisks that serve to shrink the definition of rape to the point of uselessness. For instance,

• If the victim was male, it wasn't rape.
• If the victim was capable of defending herself with violence, it wasn't rape.
• If the victim was coerced instead of pysically forced, it wasn't rape.
• If the victim was dressed in provocative clothing, it wasn't rape.
• If the victim had any alcohol or drugs in her system, it wasn't rape.
• If the victim had a personal relationship with the attacker, it wasn't rape.
• If the attacker is a college-age white guy with a bright future in front of him, it wasn't rape.

Etc. etc.