Are these Pokemon fanon ideas really that bad?

I've had many a fan idea for Pokemon Anime, but not many people have much to say about them. So i have to ask, are they really that bad?

Idea 1. - Ash having some connection to an Anti-Pokemon organization dedicated to ridding the Earth of the species and conquering it.

We've seen many a Villainous team in the Pokemon franchise, but, they've all been groups who saw Pokemon as a means to an end and frequently use them. Would it really have been bad if a story mixed it up a little and introduced a group that specialized in destroying pokemon? If anything it could introduce a theme of Man vs. Nature, with humans trying to wage war on natural creatures. Also, rather just have Ash be some random trainer who decided to interfere in their plans (Pokemon Chronicles proved that just about any trainer could hinder Team Rocket in some way), he could instead have some connection to them, be able to play a role in their defeats in way that only someone of his history could. Granted, when i came up with this idea, I had TMNT's Foot Clan in mind (more specifically, the 2003 incarnation's version), but still, the notion of an anti-pokemon group still feels like a good idea, what's wrong with it?

Idea 2. - Ash having a sister

Not much i can say about this one, other than the fact that it seemed like a good idea at the time. Also, back then, no one really clarified that Ash was an only child in a confirming way; we hear Misty say that he was an only child, but for all we knew at the time, she was only making an assumption about him, an assumption he never got around to correcting. Also, in that Mr. Mime episode, Delia only asked if Ash had a twin brother, not if he had a twin sibling, just saying. It wasn't until the XY Generation that we hear Ash actually clarify that he had no siblings, so, until then, it was still sort of left ambiguous if he really was an only child. Just saying

Idea 3. - A talking Persian

This was yet another idea that seemed like a good one at the time, and now, i really feel like it could have worked. This Persian could have served as the antithesis of all other Persian because he was large, burly and sort of scruffy looking instead of medium sized, petite and elegant. Rather than be the type of Persian one would keep as a pet, this Persian would be the kind of Pokemon you'd ask to be a bodyguard.

Also, he could have worked because he could have served as Ash and Co.'s reflection of Team Rocket's Meowth; while Meowth is a follower and kind of whiny, this Persian would act as the stern peacekeeper and staunch protector of the group's pokemon and serve as the occasional adviser to the group itself. While Meowth knows very few attacks, is a bit of a coward and kind of shrimpy, but not very agile, and prefers to use weapons and trickery, this Persian would gladly jump into the fray, is incredibly large for his kind, but very fast and agile and knows a multitude of attacks and moves (some of which are not the type that a Persian is known to use). Both can talk because they taught themselves how to do so and both are feisty and sharp of tongue, but while Meowth is mostly just a wise guy braggart with a temper, this Persian is more calm and collected and can actually back up what he says with both actions and real knowledge. Also, while Meowth is a bit of a narcissist, this Persian cares very little about his appearance, hence why his fur would be so rough and unkempt, his whiskers would look a little mangled, his gem would look a little dull and his claws and teeth would resemble those of a hardened predator rather than a well groomed pet. Finally, while Meowth and Pikachu really do not get along, this Persian would have an almost symbiotic relationship with Pikachu.

Are these ideas really that bad?

Anything involving Ash is boring imo and I've seen the sister thing enough that I think it's a Pokemon-specific cliche (giving the main character a sibling is probably a thing in other fandoms, but I don't read anything in other fandoms).

edited 18th Dec '15 5:52:10 PM by Karxrida

Ash is a boring motherfucker. Anything involving him is sure-fire way to kill my interest.

Even the dude who created him thought he was boring.

That being said, I think that even Ash can be interesting if the right effort is put in. That won't change that some people will ignore it because of him, but that's how it goes.

Destroying all Pokemon would basically be the real life equivalent of actually aiming to destroy all animal life on Earth. That is, basically idiotically suicidal.

It wasn't Ash himself, but that the entire Kid Hero concept was boring and focused all his characterization efforts on Team Rocket.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:58:29 PM by WorldTurtle2

It's even more idiotic as Pokemon, atleast in the anime and some of the manga are heavily implied to be sentient.

As for Ash. The problem I see with him is that his characterization is purposefully as cliche as you can get at this point. That was likely intentional considering the anime was originally targeted for...well kids of the time who were playing Pokemon.

Of course if you try to change him that's a issue as well as at that point you aren't reading Ash but a different character entirely. Either that or your basically just reading Red.

edited 18th Dec '15 10:22:33 PM by Bleddyn

Which Red?

Actually, with Season 18 just having closed, I'm thinking that the writers have finally upped Ash's game a good bit, with him actually using tactics more nuanced than Attack! Attack! Attack! on a regular basis. Of course, the question then becomes are the writers just OP'ing him to try to get him to be more popular? Alternately, do the writers intend for the Series Finale (or at least Ash's role in it) to be within the next 2 years and thus they want Ash to go out on a high note and have it be at least somewhat believable?

As for the OP:

• Yeah, Pokemon are too well integrated into the Biosphere of that world to effectively want to remove. However, it does raise the question of "Why do creatures with such raw power obey humans? Conversely, how were humans able to tame them initially?" (id est, an actual Origin Story for the World)
• I know that at least the Harry Potter series has some fanfics where there's a "Girl Who Lived" that supposedly takes a bunch of billing from Harry.

edited 19th Dec '15 6:47:16 AM by DonaldthePotholer

I suppose you could make a villain who hated Pokémon enough that they didn't care what the consequences would be if they were wiped out. Such a villain would need a reason for such hatred, though, which might be difficult to write well.

I think it could be done, though.

A villain, yeah. Lots of people sharing the same irrational, self destructive hatred, enough as to fill a worldwide organization, not so much.

I mean, it's not the same thing as, say, ISIS. It's more along the lines of the Let's Kill All Animals In The Planet Army.

Ash having a sister could be done well. Ash joining an anti-Pokemon organization can only have one of two outcomes as far as quality goes.

Ash joining an anti-Pokemon organization would require him to ditch Pikachu, and that would be incredibly hard to justify.

This isn't a terrible idea in concept, in fact it could be quite interesting if the focus is on Ash's relationship with the Anti-Pokemon person. The problems would come from Ash joining legitimately, that would be Character Derailment of the highest order.

"Sister of the Main Character" gives me pause no matter what story it's about.

English speaking Pokemon in general don't seem like a bad idea to me.

edited 25th Dec '15 9:48:04 AM by VeryMelon

Well, they wouldn't necessarily have to all be in on the whole plan. It could always more of a "enslave Pokémon" thing - which, arguably, is basically what groups like Team Rocket and Cipher do, but maybe there more of a focus on as a end in and of itself (Team Rocket seems more focused on using Pokémon as a means for criminal enterprise, while Cipher uses them for world domination; I'm thinking of a group who decides to enslave Pokémon for the sake of doing so).

If you're going to write fic, just don't use Ash at all and save youself the trouble of having to deal with his blandness.

One of the raisons d'etre of using pre-existing characters is that you don't have to focus on developing them. I will concede that it is bad form to just plug-and-play characters without the slightest background as the 90% are wont to do, but the primary purpose of using Adaptation characters, flat though they may be, is to go straight into the nitty-gritty of the issue at hand. An author in tune with a group of characters could figure out how they'd respond to situations that the original work wouldn't touch. Now, granted, the 90% aren't often as in-tune as they think they are.

I guess it's a question of common experience: if one goes with Game!Main, every player transposes a different persona onto that Main. So you're stuck with either rushing through and getting the complaints of "That's not what my player would've done!" or going the Developing Doomed Characters route, which delays the story as you try to establish this particular character.

And if you reply, "Just use Red", I will reiterate: "Which One?" (And the prior paragraph deals with the ever-invoked Game!Red.) Heck, Ash Ketchum isn't the only Ash in the franchise either.^note Although that Ash is pretty bland himself.

Then again, I would've gone with Cipher Scything for Pokémon Black and White and just have (game!)Iris be The Hero. I mean, she is in tune with dragons and does become champion in the sequel, so it's logical to merge the branches along that track. Maybe, for plots like the first one in the OP, Cipher Scything is the way to go: don't use your version of a Featureless Protagonist or a Generic Surrogate and, instead, link the quest to some of the NPCs.

Just make sure not to Scythe Team Cipher until the climax.

edited 20th Dec '15 10:30:13 PM by DonaldthePotholer

I, personally, use Games!Red in my story, Pokémon: Clefairy Tales.

Pokemon's characters are so one-dimensional for the most part and there's so much untapped potential with the flavor of the world that you can just get away with using your own characters. Hell, I mostly read fics focused on OCs because the majority of the franchise's cast is boring (plus Ash can fuck off).

People go after Ash for being bland and champion Red over him, when Red himself is overrated and deitified as the ultimate Pokemon badass. Even disregarding my positive memories of Ash, Red is literally a player insert character with a swarm of fanboys holding him to a high pedestal because you fought him in GSC.

I personally like Ash because I began with the anime. I also began with Yellow, but if I'd been given the other games I'd probably still name my guy Ash because of the anime. I won't deny the bias here, but you don't need to be biased to be sick of Red's worship in the fandom.

No character is perfect, Ash has his moments, I'm not trying to paint him as a messiaic saint in comparison to Red - he isn't a great protag in the grand sceme of things - but he is shown to love his pokemon and has a good time. I like that. Red has his silence and strong-ass party during GSC, which are spun into being a stoic, unbeatable god of pokemon - partially deserved, his party is strong, but he's overstated, his attributes are exaggerated, and he is ultimately overrated. Call it personal preference, but I prefer the guy who visually has a good time and tries his hardest to be a champion throughout victories and hardships, to a silent OP punk that gets more attention than he deserves. Who overcomes the same obstacles, mind you, he's just painted as a silent badass systematically destroying his opponents instead of being a happy/generally excited ten year old boy getting better as he goes along.

...With that bitter rant out of the way:

Ash joining an anti-pokemon group: I don't like it, because he has a strong bond with Pikachu in-canon and constantly fights against a gang that abuses and exploits pokemon. Maybe if it was an AU where Ash has a compelling reason to do so, heroic or not - in canon? Not so much.

Plus, wouldn't pokemon extermination be some sort of genocide? I know the pokemon Teams can get pretty grim, and the series has had more than one Omnicidal Maniac - there's probably been a genocidal team already, but regardless. This combo is what mediocre grimdark fanfic is made of.

Ash having a sister: Main character OC siblings are rarely good, but given that there's a good twist on it - it's revealed later, the sibling is more than The Pollyanna following in Ash's footsteps and winning everything over like a more flimsily written Ash - I'm not opposed to the idea. Very overplayed fanfic cliche, but not necessarily bad.

A talking Persian: If a Meowth can talk, why not a Persian? Do it if it resonates with you, but it is very much just a rip-off of Team Rocket's Meowth and will probably get called as such.

edited 25th Dec '15 12:48:31 AM by MrMallard

Where in the OP did it state that Ash would be a member of an Anti-Pokemon group? It only said that he would be connected with it! Did Luke Skywalker join the Sith in the Original Trilogy? No! Did he have "a connection" to them? Yes! The concept is merely the SuperConcept to the whole Giovanni is Ash's father meme.

And if has accurately portrayed the characterization ascribed to "Red" by the fans, then said fans have done Spe!Red and Origins!Red a severe disservice, much like the one the Anime writers made against Iris in having her Anime persona invoke Anime!Misty.

edited 25th Dec '15 9:30:19 AM by DonaldthePotholer

I don't see why someone using Ash in their fanfics can't just make him a better character if the main complaint about reading fics with him in it is his corporate mandated blandness.

Doing that just leads to him not being Ash anymore, at which point you should just use a different character or make up your own.

That's basically a non-answer but oh well, I don't need to turn this into a debate.

edited 25th Dec '15 12:07:26 PM by VeryMelon

Characters are more elastic than that.

Electric Tale of Pikachu had a less bland Ash than the anime's and he still was recognizable as an Ash.

I don't need to turn this into a debate

Discussion threads are debates by their own definition.

edited 25th Dec '15 12:08:24 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

I meant to say I'm not going to have a prolonged discussion on this subject if I don't see either side changing their view anytime soon. Sorry for not clarifying earlier.

edited 25th Dec '15 12:20:44 PM by VeryMelon