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I think the idea is more that he's a straight white guy who also superficially represents the Aryan ideal, (something which Earth X actually deconstructs, but I digress,) and that such a person, regardless of who they actually are as a human being, is automatically 'privileged' due to being a straight white guy and should not be this untouchable moral pillar that is supposed to represent the best in all of us. Rather, we should instead have a homeless black man as our resident untouchable moral pillar, because such a person would far better represent the American people as a whole.
edited 15th Dec '15 1:10:46 PM by kkhohoho
The "Relatively Benevolent" status is a debate in and of itself, given that writers have written him as being everything from a totalitarian madman whose good traits are a lot of well-spun PR; to being next to godlike with any negative PR the work of haters being haters, that any vile acts are justified on his part, and that honestly we'd all be better off if we just stepped aside and made Doom our unquestioned leader for life.
You mean the same guy who, on the cover of his very first issue, delivered a punch to the jaw to the guy who actually represents the 'Aryan ideal'?
edited 15th Dec '15 1:05:07 PM by TheSpaceJawa
edited 15th Dec '15 1:15:57 PM by kkhohoho
At any rate, I'm a lot more tolerant of a WWII veteran being presented as a moral paragon and occasionally getting on a soapbox, since I feel that's an actual privilege these people have earned in reality, and it's still a good representation in fiction. Him heading a security organization gives that organization credit, not the other way around.
To contrast, I feel the Justice League has gone off the deep end by ditching the Hall of Justice for the Watchtower, literally and figuratively. In contrast to the modern Avengers being a silly yet endearing frat house, the League looks like a cabal of holier-than-thou aristocrats operating literally above the law. Not exactly an inspiring image, even when they aren't descending to preach morality to us mere mortals.
edited 15th Dec '15 1:24:25 PM by indiana404
@Indianna And? You realize that type of characterization has been used for Steve as well? I could also point out how simplified the WW 2 conflict is in the Cap comics. Note that Garth Ennis who hates most cape heroes actually prefers Superman and Wonder Woman to Captain America.
And at least some of the members of the League still have 9 to 5 jobs they go to. or have human supporting casts. When was the last time Steve hung out with someone who wasn't an Avenger or SHIELD personnel?
This seems to boil down to whether or not you have a problem with Captain America being a white guy. And by extension, whether you have a problem with any superhero being a white guy, because of the notion that as privileged white guys they have nothing to say to anyone on any subject and should thus shut up, and anything that they do that might be perceived as heroic is not given that, again, they're privileged white guys.
Seems a suspect argument.
From the Hulk's perspective, he just wanted to be left alone. So he was sent away, to a planet where he was made a slave. He made the best of it, but after that it blew up, killing billions of people and rendering the planet unlivable for the next billion years to everyone left. He had the right to be angry but even more, he had a thousand angry subjects to answer to, and they wanted revenge. And why wouldn't they. Red King's rule was bad, but it was at least livable. What's more, this clearly noble being who freed them from Red King? Someone tried to kill him over something he couldn't control, and obviously didn't care about however many casualties were taken with him.
So he tells them they are going to get revenge, they get to wreck the perpetrator's homes and lively hood, but they are only going to kill those directly responsible(and Hulk was going to kill Xavier, hell, I never said he was completely right, just that he wasn't a karma Houdini).
At the end of the day Hulk didn't even cause the billions of property damage that he usually does, not personally until a new betrayal was revealed and even then he was subdued before he could act. Had he had his way, the humans and inhumans would have rebuilt, they would have recovered, most of the populace would have sympathized with Hulk on some level and they would have moved on. The subjects who wanted to Kill All Humans would have been appeased by seeing those they hated most killed in the most satisfying way possible way their culture has conditioned them to and any number of major disasters would have been averted.
Ironman lead an International Agency in an illegal seizure of citizens of a sovereign nation based on a law that agency had no right to enforce that had not that had not even been made an official law yet. The US itself should have declared war on SHIELD if not for the fact it was manipulating an emotionally torn populace over a tragedy caused by a super villain. The She-Hulk had tons of legal dirt to throw Ironman under the jail anyway, she was only locked up so Hulk could get revenge his way, and you know, appease the horde of understandably homicidal aliens who won't be able to settle their home world for another billion years, if they're lucky.
Reed Richards is the man who would willingly feed his family to zombies, remember? When you have to say at least he's not as bad as Doctor Doom, you don't need him.
Dr. Strange you can kind of understand. It's his job to deal with cosmic threats to the Earth, which the Hulk potentially is. He also tried to do it in a nonlethal way. But then he went and channeled Zom, a weapon that lead to a chain of events that nearly destroyed the universe. At that point, his death would have been justified.
Black Bolt, well he just chose bad company and sided with them on a poorly executed plan that resulted in the death of billions and the end of an entire biosphere. Justified would be Hulk breaking a hole in the moon but he was settling for Bolt's execution.
And when it was discovered the whole death of billions thing wasn't entirely the result of the Illuminati's negligence but also in part caused by sabotage, said saboteur was executed and the Hulk willingly accepted incarceration.
So what was Black Bolt's punishment for when the word was straight but he was still partially responsible for billions of deaths? Nothing, he still gets to be king of the moon. Reed gets to go back to his research, Stark still gets to be head of his "international" organization that actively undermines the authority of a sovereign nation through fear and force. Strange is the only one who suffers setbacks for his crimes against humanity. And remember, the Hulk is not a superhero, except for when he's "The Professor". At all other times he's supposed to be a blight against humanity that is at best left alone or directed against something equally bad/worse. Hulk is the reason Marvel Earth became a Crapsack World, before antimutant sentiment, before the Jerkass Gods, before the all powerful crime bosses, before it was situated close to an important interstellar way point. That he's an awful but totally deserved punishment was the theme of his book from the beginning. He was created by an experiment that never should have been attempted after it was tampered with by someone who had no business being there and only rampages when he is needlessly provoked. If Marvel decided that wasn't the point anymore they should have either kept him as the professor, not used him or wrote more stories like Planet Hulk divorced from the regular clusterfuck "superhero community" because as satisfying as World War Hulk was, it was also an obviously attempted Author's Saving Throw. An obvious attempt to repair Hulk's reputation after The Sentry was revealed to have "turn Hulk into a puppy dog" powers and ultimately less satisfying than Planet Hulk before it because World War had to remind the reader of the usual Marvel crap Planet was refreshingly light on.
edited 15th Dec '15 7:34:10 PM by IndirectActiveTransport
If the Hulk only wanted to be left alone, he'd have offered to be taken into space as opposed to the Illuminati needing to trick him He still goes to large cities or towns were he knows his rampages will cause destruction.
The Sentry isn't the only one who's been shown as capable of calming the Hulk down. Rick and Betty have done that too. Rather I'd say the issues with the Hulk stem from the ridiculous contrivances writers pull to justify his existence and tolerance in the MU. Remember that time they outright had Amadeus Cho say Hulk had never killed anyone during his rampages? That's what I mean.
That Hulk immediately jumped to the conclusion it was the Illuminati that had blown up Scaar shows how his anger clouds his judgement. He'd been on Scaar, how long? And now the ship blows up? Why not set it for detonation as soon as he leaves Earth's orbit if killing him was their objective? Why even bother shooting him into space if they could come up with something that could kill him.
That's the thing about Planet Hulk. The Illuminati did have a point in that the Hulk was too much of a problem and there was only so many times thye could turn a blind eye to it. I'm surprised the writers didn't simply have his 12 billionth temper tantrum be the catalyst that leads to an all time rise of anti super sentiment. That would have made a hell lot more sense than throwing the New Warriors under the bus.
If there's one good thing that can be said of Amadeus Cho as the new Hulk, it's that it gets rid of stories where the writers have to excuse continued plague of an existence.
Aaand re-taking this back on topic, I'd say the above discussion conclusively demonstrates just why Marvel heroes aren't expected to solve world problems - they have enough trouble dealing with one another as it is, not to mention mutant-related conflicts the scale and permanence of which DC simply can't match.
Instead, DC has cities like Gotham, Hub and Bludhaven, who should by all means have garnered a visit from the Justice League, but unfortunately the pseudo-feudal nature of the DCU means that only one cape clan can operate in any given town, even if the hero of another can clean up shop in a week. And that's not even going into Bat-schizophrenia, where the guy tackles gods in one story and is thrown around by the local fetish club in the next. Then again, this is the same guy who turned wangst into an art form, so the overall message seems to be that if you're stuck with a such a masochist of a hero in town, well, sucks to be you.
edited 16th Dec '15 12:14:27 AM by indiana404
Then again, this is the same guy who turned wangst into an art form,
Funny I'd say Peter Parker is just as guilty if not more so than Bruce. Since for most of his history the message seems to be that being a neurotic man child with a victim and messiah complex is called responsibility.
And you know what? I'd still pick the DCU over a place like Marvel where I have to worry about being caught in a hero vs hero pissing match on top of villainous threats. Stuff like The Dark Knight Rises or Injustice are rare by comparison or confined to alternate universes. Indeed, I;d say those actually show the realistic fall out of Marvel's messed up "heroes".
edited 16th Dec '15 12:42:08 AM by windleopard
I'd say Peter not having a ten digit trust fund might lend some credence to his early troubles, though yeah, if I were to pick a reason for anxiety, I'd probably focus on the very real possibility of him mutating into a spider monster with no prompting. 
Maybe his obsession with responsibility is an attempt to deflect such thoughts.
edited 16th Dec '15 1:09:23 AM by indiana404
And much of the time those problems are being caused by the heroes.
I don't hate Marvel heroes. It's the writers inability to deal with their flaws in a realistic way that bothers and Marvel Zombies like you who praise them for their inability to do so. Seriously this is like the fifth thread on this site that you've picked to go on an anti-DC filibuster/Marvel wank fest.
Ah yes it makes so much sense that a kid with a ten diit trust fund could develop web fluid and web shooters but somehow couldn't use them to make money?
edited 16th Dec '15 1:39:01 AM by windleopard
In that case, just what are their flaws exactly, (which you might have already covered but whatever,) and how should the writers solve them? Because you say that the writers should address these problems, but you've never really mentioned how.
AHAHAHA, fools! You have fallen into my trap!
Other characters calming the Hulk down is not the same thing as turning Hulk into a puppy dog like The Sentry did. Hulks Cool Down Hug Corollary was that if he found a friend or something he would be calmed but as soon as something provoked him, as it always would, Hulk Smash!
The Sentry reduced Hulk to a crying scared child, something no one else had managed prior. Not Professor X, not Silver Surfer, not Odin, not Dr. Strange, not the nigh omnipotent The Beyonder, not even Banner's own invincible projection of his abusive father. It'd have been less damaging to the character if they had just taken away Banner's ability to become The Hulk rather than destroying what is supposed to be the side of him he loathes to have released. You don't turn Mr. Hyde into a frightened baby boy, that ruins the entire point of him. The fact that World War Hulk climaxes with Hulk, angrier than he's ever been, with combat training, increased intelligence and Banner's approval coming back from behind to decisively crush The Sentry speaks volumes.
Think about it, what else did Hulk really accomplish? Beat Hercules? He's done it before and Hercules didn't even try to win. She-Hulk? Wasn't even there to fight. Ironman? Well, he's done it numerous times already and Ironman's ultimate weapon was sabotaged on the grounds it was illegal. The Fantastic Four? Done that, and aside from tanking the "nova flame" it ultimately came down to them believing Hulk correct rather than his overwhelming power. The X-men, Xavier didn't even try and Juggernaut having to pull himself out of a creek was a lot less dramatic than Juggernaut's imminent beheading the last time Hulk's "war" persona surfaced and Hulk needed a water hose to beat Dust. Ghost Rider? Wasn't actually beaten, explicitly had more serious problem than Hulk. Thunderbolt Ross? That hardly qualifies. Dr Strange, see She-Hulk. All he did out of the ordinary was beat Black Bolt at the beginning to establish his new threat level and some new characters called the Gamma Corps in what turned out to be an Anticlimax to again establish how much stronger and smarter he had gotten.
The defeat of The Sentry was one of only three meaningful victories The Hulk achieved in the entire arc, the only one that truly required his new power, intelligence and wrath to justify and when he was beaten, The Hulk learned it had been a lie that had lead him on the war path, which caused him to lose control for the first time in the entire story, nearly shatter the entire eastern US seaboard by taking two steps and willingly be put down and incarcerated, once again establishing him as the bane against humanity it ultimately brought on itself.
Planet Hulk was a success by new millennium Marvel standards. They could have left Hulk as another off Earth character. World War Hulk was demonstrative of the fact they felt The Sentry's reduction of Hulk into a sobbing infantile state was a mistake that needed correcting with the utmost prejudice. The biggest flaw in going forward with it, rather than leaving Planet Hulk as the new status quo, is that Marvel did not have the balls to kill The Sentry then and there.
That's how it relates to this thread. Nothing brings attention to the fact superheroes are impotent more than the obnoxious marketing ploy that was The Sentry. Characters like him are the reason people assume superheroes should be able to solve real world issues. He apparently does everything better than everyone else. He's go no major adversaries other than himself. He's so powerful he retcons not just comic books but the real world. So why doesn't he solve everything? Because he's so indecisive about what to do that he has a computer decide for him? Selling copies of that computer might just do some good then! Why the hell does this thing even exist? Because Marvel needed to critique a version of Superman that hadn't existed for thirty years? Weren't Virtue, Blue Marvel, Hyperion and Gladiator enough already?
Characters like Dr. Strange might be powerful but they also have rogues galleries that could fill up a book shelf. Not Sentry, he's so mighty not even the problems of his "universe" can hinder him. He's immune to the alien science of Galactus, the stuff that utilizes the power cosmic itself. He doesn't even live off world like Thor or Silver Surfer. The fool drunk out of a random lab vial from a random chemistry set. Unremarkable human science somehow made an unremarkable human capable of going toe to toe with a sufficiently advanced alien energy being who needed aid of reality warping technology that took the lifetime of an entire universe develop and the phoenix force and still needed to incubate for billions of years in a "cosmic egg" that opened with the big bang to become what it was! The Sentry's own impotence manifested as a villain. It wasn't cute, it wasn't compelling but it did make its point. Superheroes need to be fallible and face constant challenges that are sufficiently powerful and or complex enough to exhaust their time, effort and resources or they start to look ineffectual when the world somehow doesn't look any better.
If you don't want to constantly beat down your superhero you still need to make the world even worse than the one we live on, in constant danger of becoming worse, sufficiently weird enough to obviously not be "our" world or not make your protagonist a superhero. Those are reasons The Hulk, a rage powered gamma ray burst that wears purple shorts, has worked in several different incarnations and things like The Sentry never have for anything but commentary on why they don't work in superhero setting like Marvel.
Mostly their habit of clutching the conflict ball like a child holds a blanket and their habit of allowing untrustworthy snakes into their teams.
The former I think can be dealt with easily by simply having the characters discuss things like adults and make sure the situation is very extreme that they come to blows. Civil War could have been much more interesting without the fights and if Maria Hill didn't try to arrest Steve before the SHRA was even passed. Also, I'd say that if stories like this end up tarnishing a relationship, then said relationship should stay dead. There is no reason why Tony and Steve should have remained friends after Civil War and I sincerely hope they don't forgive each other after Infinity. But I'm not holding my breath.
the latter fault can be handled in two ways. One is to have villainous characters serve their time. Not possible unfortunately due to the nature of the medium. The other is to simply not have those type of characters join the teams. The X-Men could solve a lot of their PR problems by not having people like Emma Frost or Magneto on their rosters.
The real problem with superhero impotence is when it's written as part of the premise itself - that is, when you have supervillains that the heroes should easily have handled ages ago, yet for some reason keep restraining themselves, leaving actual justice in the hands of the official authorities... which themselves are too corrupt to function, letting the villains literally get away with murder.
This is the great paradox of superheroes, at least the ones cast from the noble vigilante mold - trusting a corrupt system. I mean, if the matter is that some villains are difficult to subdue by ordinary means, necessitating an unorthodox specialist, that's par for the course - hence my enduring respect for Spider-Man, whose methodology is all but built around that. But when you have villains like the Joker or Lex Luthor, whose entire shtick revolves around them exploiting the legal system so as to become functionally untouchable, and their cape counterparts keep doing nothing more than delivering them straight to it after their latest engineered disaster - that just doesn't work. In a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel, this is the kind of nonsense that simply has no reason to exist, let alone be milked for drama like so many Joker stories in particular try to do.
Bottom line, should superheroes try to solve real world issues - the whole matter is best left alone, including by the writers themselves. However, should superheroes do all they can to solve their own local issues - yes, very definitely. It's one thing if a villain is too powerful to permanently defeat, or if an issue is to big to solve immediately - the whole mutant matter at Marvel is a testament to how many interesting stories such an enduring problem can drive. But the paradox of a superhero operating outside the justice system because of its corruption, only to leave actual dispensation of justice to it - the only thing this drives is high publicity for the heroes not squeamish about employing the respective no-nonsense solutions.
Captain America is powerful because he is moral. Superman is moral because he is powerful.