Fixing a long list of PSOC articles

The problem is that nothing you've done here has done anything to convince us of that. You keep telling us that you understand what a trope is, but your drafts show a consistent failure understand why we're giving you these corrections. We're not just assigning you random tasks, here. We're asking you to do things that will genuinely help with your comprehension problems so that you can go back and fix your trope descriptions.

As long as you're still working hard on this with us, I'll make sure we don't cut anything else before we have a chance to go back and look at it again, ok? But we need to step away from Hammerspace Parachute for a little while.

Edit: Those are indeed problems, but that's not what makes it chairs. Go read People Sit In Chairs carefully, and try again.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:37:18 PM by Darksilverhawk

Blame it on my Asperger's Syndrome, it's the reason why I can't think comprehensively like a lot of the tropers here can. The least I'm asking you to do is give me a simpler way for me to explain why something is a trope so I can understand it better. That's all I'm asking. Please. I'm starting to cry here.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:42:17 PM by CaveCat

"...Hammerspace Parachute is chairs because the current description is too short and doesn't quite match up with a lot of the examples..."

Incorrect.

Okay, then it's because it's The Same But More Specific for Hammerspace.

Sorry, still wrong. TSBMS has nothing to do with PSOC.

Okay, I'm lost then. Why is it PSOC then?

OK, it's not PSOC. The parachute appears in the story to save a character. But the argument is that as such, it's not in any way different than any other instance of an object appearing out of nowhere (which is what Hammerspace is about).

You're right, I got nothing. But please give me another chance. I can make it better, just give me a simpler way to fix it that I can understand.

A trope is not an event, it is the meaning of an event. What's the "because"? It is not just a thing that happens, it is why the thing happens.

Hammerspace Parachute barely escapes being chairs because it says "Most of the time, this is done for Rule of Cool...", which is spectacularly weak, the meaning should be described in this article, not a different one. Anyway, the meaning is not distinct from Hammerspace, as far as I can tell it is exactly the same thing, but with the item specified.

Please try again with a different article you launched. Note that not all of them can be fixed at all, their problem is fundamental. Most of the time, when someone says "I think this is PSOC", they mean "I think this article should not exist", not "I think this article has problems that can be fixed."

edited 2nd Mar '15 2:18:22 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Fine, then nuke Hammerspace Parachute for all I care, since it's obvious that I can't do anything to fix the description. Just tell me which article should be worked on now.

Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime. Other posters in this thread are spending a great deal of energy trying to teach you to how to fish, and you keep asking to be given more, instead. It is very frustrating.

That still doesn't make me feel any better. I've been doing what I was told to do, which was to write a new draft of the article to see if any of you would okay the improved version. I'm a troper too.

edited 2nd Mar '15 2:40:56 PM by CaveCat

No, people have been asking you to stop doing that, for the last several pages, because clearly it's not helping. The important issue is that you understand the problem, so you don't create more problems in the future, not just fixing problems created in the past. Edit bans are to prevent future damage, not punish past behavior.

Then what do you want me to do if I want to be allowed to make trope pages again?

edited 2nd Mar '15 3:01:42 PM by CaveCat

Demonstrate that you understand what People Sit On Chairs means. Several suggestions for how you might demonstrate that understanding have been made.

From #137: "Here, I want you to do something for me that I think might help. See those elements Madrugada used to break down Vicious Vac (#132)? I want you to go over to God Save Us from the Queen!, read the definition carefully, and answer those same questions in your own words based in that trope. What is the pattern, what are they trying to do with the pattern, why does the creator expect to get that response, and where is it most commonly used?"

edited 2nd Mar '15 3:12:19 PM by rodneyAnonymous

I'll do it, but I don't know where to start.

Okay then... here's what I can see for God Save Us from the Queen!.

• what the pattern is <the queen is often see as a tyrannical ruler in fiction>
• what the creator who uses that pattern is using it to do <show that the queen is portrayed in an unfavorable light>
• why they expect to get that response <the queen is often shown as having No Sympathy and being prone to order beheading to her subjects>
• The most common ways it's used <used mostly in fairy tales or fantasy stories, especially those that take place in medieval times>

I think I understand it now.

edited 2nd Mar '15 3:22:10 PM by CaveCat

I asked myself all those questions that Madrugada asked me for Vicious Vac and answered them in my own words for God Save Us from the Queen!. You want I should do the same thing with the other articles I created?

1. Good job on using your own words.
2. "In fiction" isn't needed. This is a trope, not a Useful Notes. By default, we are discussing fiction and not reality.
3. Your description for 2 is wrong. The creator of Snow White isn't trying to show that the Queen is portrayed in an unfavourable light. The creator of Snow White is portraying the Queen in an unfavourable light. The different grammar makes an entirely different meaning in English. However, this is just a restatement of #1, not answering "what the creator who portrays the Queen in an unfavourable light is using it to do".
4. Your description for 3 is wrong. This is where Real Life information is drawn upon. Instead, you tell us "how the creator shows the Queen's villainy".
5. Your description for 4 works well.

You are currently still identifying "i see a chair in the story", and missing the meaning that creates a "Slouch of Villainy".

edited 3rd Mar '15 7:41:25 AM by crazysamaritan

Okay, I'll try it again then.

• what the pattern is <the queen is often seen as a tyrannical ruler>
• what the creator who uses that pattern is using it to do <portray the queen in an unfavorable light to heighten the drama>
• why they expect to get that response <to show that not every queen is good and just, but rather vile and unscrupulous>
• The most common ways it's used <used mostly in fairy tales or fantasy stories, especially those that take place in medieval times>

Is that better?

edited 3rd Mar '15 8:30:58 AM by CaveCat

That's much better, but you're still off on #3 and a bit askew on #2.

What are they trying to do?: What you have now is just a restatement of #1: "show the queen to be a tyrant". But there's a big pointer to the sort of answer #2 needs in #3, which asks "why do they expect to get that response?" The answer to #2 is a response or reaction from the audience. So in this case, #2 is <to make the audience dislike or distrust the character of the queen, and to build sympathy for any character who opposes her or who she mistreats.>

This leads to #3: Why do they expect to get that response? <Because people generally don't like or admire bullies and tend to sympathize with those a bully picks on.>

If you say so

• what the pattern is <the queen is often seen as a tyrannical ruler>
• what the creator who uses that pattern is using it to do <to make the audience dislike or distrust the character of the queen, and to build sympathy for any character who opposes her or who she mistreats>
• why they expect to get that response <Because people generally don't like or admire bullies and tend to sympathize with those a bully picks on>
• The most common ways it's used <used mostly in fairy tales or fantasy stories, especially those that take place in medieval times>

How's that now?

You changed it to what I said. But do you understand why those answers are more helpful in writing up the trope description? How they're different from the ones you gave first? How they fit together to build a good solid trope definition?

Yes, absolutely. I think I understand now.

Well, now that I understand everything, we still need to discuss which articles can be worked on and which ones should be nuked.