Unclear Description: Semper Fi

From what I've been seeing in this thread, and the fact that it is the motto of a specifically American organization, that seems likely.

It's not even comen knowledge for Americans, so I'd say it's worth a switch.

If the consensus is to change it, we'll need a name to change it to.

I personally don't like Badass USMC or Badass Marine; the former is grammatically awkward in my opinion, the latter doesn't make it clear that it's about American Marines, and they are both Bad Snowclones, as mentioned by crazysamaritan.

edited 12th Dec '14 12:08:14 PM by SolipSchism

What? It is relevant: if an US Marine is portrayed as badass, then why is it not Badass USMC?

It is relevant, but the name itself is awkward. Like I said, you can't correctly use the phrase "Badass USMC" in a sentence. It would be impossible to Blue Link without a Pot Hole or a Sink Hole. At least, not without making the sentence incredibly awkward.

Besides, anyone who doesn't know that Semper Fi is the USMC motto probably also doesn't immediately know what USMC stands for.

edited 15th Dec '14 11:11:51 AM by SolipSchism

Call it Glorifying US Marines or US Marines Are Awesome?

I'm a person who knows absolutely nothing about the US military structure, I don't even know the order in which military ranks go, or branches that aren't the air force, and I know what Semper Fi means.

It's the perfect name for the trope.

It's not about the unclear name anynore. Rather, it's whether Semper Fi actually fits the trope or not.

Which I don't think it is, judging by some examples.

This is an older comment, but I wanted to point out that in no way is this a "new" stock phrase. The page is ancient.

Is the trope still "US Marines are awesome / loyal / etc" as far as I understand it?

Semper Fi fits it perfectly, seeing as semper fidelis means "always loyal", meaning that a marine that is portrayed as such fulfills the demand put on him by the motto.

edited 17th Dec '14 10:33:35 PM by lazybanshee

That's close, but the page hews closer to "Marines feel they are the best".

It is written very American-centric, so I can't tell if we have tropes for Marines from other countries. Space Marine and A Space Marine Is You are supposed to be similar tropes, In Space.

If you are not American, can you honestly say that the Marines of your country, if you have Marines in your country, have the same sort of Memetic Badass status as the US Marines? Constantly hailed as awesome and loyal, having underwent Training from Hell, prepared for all sorts of combat situations? Something that would make a trope?

We have naval infantry, we have excellent means of naval warfare in general, but the go-to super soldier would be a Spetznaz member.

edited 18th Dec '14 7:00:52 AM by lazybanshee

One trait of the "image" of a US Marine that I don't think quite applies to other super-badass branches of military (like SEALS or Army Rangers, as well as other branches from other nations) is that they're not super suave, or technically brilliant, or stealthy, or any of that. They are the idealized epitome of the "brawn" half of Brains and Brawn, and while an actual Marine might disagree, that's not meant as an insult. They're seen as Badass not because they're especially smart, but because they're indomitably powerful, they strike without hesitation, mercy, or weakness.

Most other "elite" branches are seen as such for other reasons: They can get in and out behind enemy lines without ever being detected, or they have the best tech and the best operators, or what-have-you. But the Marine myth is oriented on strength and power, and the confidence that comes out of it.

I don't see any reason for the Semper Fi trope to necessarily refer to US Marines (I can imagine a fictional military organization based on them, after all, fitting the trope), but if the branch in question is badass for the wrong reasons, then I don't think it would fit. An organization that has more in common with other branches (an orgnaization known for its stealth, for example), then it wouldn't fit.

edited 18th Dec '14 9:21:46 AM by SolipSchism

Then leave it an American- and not!American-only trope with a clarification. Why not? The name is excellent.

I will indulge you a bit: what trope-defining works do you base this characteristic of a US Marine on? Let us dance from examples, shall we?

edited 18th Dec '14 12:48:03 PM by lazybanshee

Aw, hell. I don't know. I only started this thread because the page reads like a Useful Notes page and is full of ZCEs.

I'm basing my statements about the "Marine myth" on personal experience in the US Army and how people talk about them, and how people see them, and how they talk about themselves.

EDIT: That might sound irrelevant, but the various branches of the US military frequently work with each other; I spent plenty of time around Marines while I was in AIT and while I was in Kuwait, and a bit in Iraq. I've also interacted closely with them during training events stateside.

edited 18th Dec '14 12:59:45 PM by SolipSchism

People's witch hunt for ZC Es kinda amuses me. Not for this trope specifically, but in general. Look at Cute Witch. So many commented out examples, what context is there for a trope that amounts to "is a witch and pretty?"

If Cute Witch is full of ZCEs and it's hard to figure out how to add context to that trope, maybe the trope itself needs a trip to the TRS. Is that really relevant here?

Semper Fi should not just be "Marines". And it should not just be a Stock Phrase. The ZCEs I'm referring to are literally just "X Work features marines" or "In Y Work, Alice says 'Semper Fi' at one point." Neither of those are tropes. The ZCEs are not the real problem in and of themselves in this case; they are symptomatic of the fact that the trope is ill-defined and not written clearly.

edited 18th Dec '14 3:35:02 PM by SolipSchism

Let us settle on "US Marines act in accordance to the idealistic perception of US Marines". Probably does not even need an aside to mention that very-definitely-not-US marines also apply. The rest of the effort is better spent on defining said idealistic perception.

edited 18th Dec '14 3:42:26 PM by lazybanshee

So essentially we're back to the beginning: Semper Fi should be a trope about the idealized US Marine and/or anything primarily based on it.

I agree with that definition. I don't agree with the name, though. It's a motto, even if it is closely associated with USMC.

Okay, so let's at least agree that the definition has been... agreed upon.

Now back to the name. I'm not seeing a consensus yet, or a compromise—there are two very different opinions.

Is this going to necessitate a crowner? I'm afraid I've never created one, so it could be a learning experience.

How Crowners Work

So that's a yes?

If you guys want a rename, yes, you'll need a crowner. That said, has the description been fixed?

My defense of the name is that while Semper Fi is best known as the motto of the US marine corps, its been used by the militaries of many nations and even noble families for centuries: The Swiss Grenadiers, France's Irish Brigade, Brazil's Engineering Corps, China's Marine Corps... Basically, its become the standard motto for any military unit who's job is to ignore the Bullet Hell around them and get their assigned mission done, whatever it takes.

While it may not be common knowledge in the Typical Troper Demographic, ask most people with ties to a military what semper fi means (even those who don't use it as a motto) and they can tell you- its a fairly engrained part of military lore. We've got plenty more obscure references, and thats before you even get into the ones with Japanese names.

edited 21st Dec '14 8:53:58 AM by Scorpion451