Perception of time for nonhuman characters?

Most of my main characters in the novel I'm working on aren't human. They're demons that age at a much different rate from humans, and different species of demons age differently from one another. Here's how my main character ages compared to a human:

Human: 1 year of age = 1 year of growth MC: 8 and a half years of age = 1 year of growth

Basically, it takes the MC 8 and a half years to attain the full equivalent of one year's development/growth.

I imagine that this different rate of aging would fundamentally alter how she (and other nonhumans) perceive the passage of time and years. The typical 4-seasons-a-year is in effect environmentally.

I just don't know how such a long rate of aging would effect one's perception of time. I've looked at the classical fantasy examples (namely elves and dwarves in Tolkien, Paolini, etc.) that age differently from humans, but they don't really talk about how those species think of the passage of time.

Note: for the MC's species, each "year" is viewed as one part in a cycle that completes itself after they've reached the 8.5 year mark from some yet-unknown start date, at which point, to them, it starts over. It is a buildup to their growth equivalent of one year, like how humans often have New Year's celebrations to mark the symbolic beginning of a new year/cycle of growth/what have you.

Thoughts?

"It is good to have an end to journey toward, but it is the journey that matters in the end." ~Ernest Hemingway (American author)

Is there a reason for them to age exactly 8.5 times slower than a human?

Firstly I think when considering age vs growth it can be helpful to look at it without considering years. We use years to measure age because they are our standard measure of time, not because they mark any biological process. Saying a non human grows a years worth of growth in X time can be generalised at best because the amount humans grow in a year varies between people. I think it can be helpful to consider in life stages rather than years- by what age are fully developed? How old is their peak? What is old age?

Secondly, why 8.5 years to a single year? We use years because of the cycles of seasons/months not because a year is significant to humans perspective on time. Unless they are intentionally mirroring human birthday tradition it makes more sense for them to pick a number of years based on whatever numeric system they use.

If they continue to age slower through out their lives (giving them a much longer lifespan) they will have a very different perspective of the future. Whereas we look forward and imagine what will happen, they know they are going to live it.

An individual which ages slower is going to need a different memory to humans. They either need to be able to simply have a much better memory or be able to forget long periods of time. Either will affect their personality.

I agree, op sound to fixated by years. How fast a creature develop/grow/age has little to do with how long they live. And what is aging anyway?

The current average life expectency is about 2x some other eras, but that doesn't mean we age at half the rate. How do we perceive time now compared to people that lived during those others eras? A day is still a day and a year is still a year...

I have a river-spirit who is technically a sub-race of The Fair Folk. Even for them, he's damn old—he looks twenty-something, but he was a child when the Normans invaded Ireland (1100s-ish) and that makes him somewhere around 1000-1500 years old in modern-day Ireland.

He knows the measurement of years/months/days, but he experiences them much differently than humans do. This causes problems when he randomly shows up in a human character's life after five years: River-guy has spent the equivalent of maybe two or three months trying to make up his mind about whether to talk to the cute guy he saw, but human-guy has no clue who he is because five years is long enough for him to graduate from college while forming a steady relationship with someone else.

Since your demons can live nearly nine times longer than humans, that perception of time would probably apply. A year would be the equivalent of one or two months, so relationships and childrearing would be experienced accordingly.

I don't really have humans in my big project, so I suppose that this question would apply to all of my characters, but at the same time most of them serve the same role. Regardless, there are differences worth noting.

For example, consider that most mammals mature at very different rates from humans in proportion to their lifespan. Consider a dog, which on average lives between ten and twelve years. Were we to stretch that to parity with humans, sexual maturity would still not compare: Dogs reach the equivalent of puberty at around one year and full maturity at about three, which when stretched lands at seven and in the twenties respectively. These even varies between breeds, let alone between dogs and other canids.

Now, consider how these differences in rates of physical maturity and ageing might affect the way that individuals or even cultures see the world and one another. Say one group lives longer on average than another, but takes less time to reach the age at which they are considered adult, whether de facto or de jure.

This is taken to an extreme with certain characters who either biologically quite far from the basic norms of the cast or of a supernatural nature. At least one character lives countless lives in succession, superficially forgetting each one as it is shed like a skin but retaining an inner personality that leans or fails to learn from each experience and views each life like part of a longer one—and like any long life, has all but forgotten their ancient infancy. A few have lived a very long time and retain solid memories throughout but think very differently about time and the world; others live from moment to moment endlessly, retaining only certain necessary facts or truths throughout. It varies a lot.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.

"I just don't know how such a long rate of aging would effect one's perception of time. I've looked at the classical fantasy examples (namely elves and dwarves in Tolkien, Paolini, etc.) that age differently from humans, but they don't really talk about how those species think of the passage of time."

I'm not sure that I agree. I think perception of time would primarily be governed by how fast the brain processes information. If a long-lived species had a brain that processed information more slowly than a human, then one might argue that they perceive change in a given time frame as occurring more quickly than we do; and vice versa if their brain processes faster than ours does.

I think what you might be getting at is the older a specific creature is, the more the past will have seemed to have taken place more quickly. A creature that has lived only 20 years will only have experienced so much, but a creature that has lived 2000 years may start to become confused regarding when everything took place- past events may start blending into one another, creating an impression that it all took place very quickly.

It really depends...

My setting has a race that ages 1/4 as fast as a human and stops aging at 40 years (160 human years), but they're made to live a human lifestyle and they're about 22 years (88 human years) during the story's start. Quite a few have outlived their human parents and friends, but otherwise they haven't experienced as much for time to move quickly for them. However, if they were much older, their perception of time would be different.

edited 30th Jul '14 7:14:54 PM by ironcommando

...eheh

I like this thread, it's exciting!

• A character with a long life-span will have trouble adjusting to changes over time. Someone born in the 1700's alive today would still have trouble with the social and political changes that occur over time. Values Dissonance kicks in. Dance to modern music? Understand or even put up with a much younger character? These would be hurdles that would have to be addressed.
  • immediately means something different to The Ageless than it does to a Muggle. Characters might be afraid of General Mudern Von Bludddrinker, but the immortal would say "I've seen men like him, they come and they go." Or playing the Long Game: "This play will spell his doom in thirty years!" (cue collective groan from the other characters).

• A character with a shorter lifespan will see the world has static. For him or her, the world has always been "this way". It's not impatience or impulsiveness, it's that a day, an hour or even "just a few minutes" is an eternity to them.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

My elves have a Healing Factor that makes them age to maturity and then their aging slows to a crawl. It doesn't stop, just goes very slowly. They typically live for one thousand years.

They're in some form of education for almost the first entire century of their lives. Young elves that are in their first century of life are the only ones that really relate with humans and they become progressively more detached as they age. They are warned not to relate to humans too much in their first century of life, since they will have to watch their friend die. On the flip side, interbreeding is encouraged since elves have such a low population (no such thing as a half elf really; if a human and elf breed, it's an elf albeit with superficial human traits).

I was thinking of making my dwarves the polar opposite. I read in a mythology book that dwarves age fast, so they'd be an old man at 10. Probably dead by 15. I figured this would make them incredible history recorders, since due to their short life, everything must be recorded. Lying would be an incredible taboo, and fiction would be banned to avoid marking up records. Short lifespan means they'd have to breed like rabbits and many would choose the sweet party life, leading to their stereotypical behavior.

So that's two different lifespans and how is imagine they'd function.

You know, I was writing the next bit about my river spirit and he sounds a lot like Book Legolas or the woodland elves: He's lighthearted and earnest, but according to his now-60-something-year-old friend, he's got a few wires loose because his river meanders a lot. He's also really gabby and social since rivers are one of the best focal points of human society. (I also love the "babbling river" pun.)

When I read this thread again a couple days ago, I realized the potential Fridge Horror in a Mayfly–December Romance like I was setting up, but then I realized that my river-spirit is constantly mixing up the soul with the body—he didn't realize that his older friend's hair has gone gray because the friend's soul has stayed constant, and he often forgets that humans need a gift or special training to see souls like the Fair Folk do. Maybe longer-lived beings would view humans friends/lovers similarly to that? Like, the shorter-lived person's body would age and die, but their soul would either move to Heaven/the Otherworld/what-have-you, or it would only be a couple (of hundred) years till they reincarnate.

Bleh, now I have a plot bunny where the river-spirit has a battalion of deceased friends/lovers because he's been twenty-something for a few hundred years, and they're all annoyed at how much he talks.

It's funny that I was just thinking about this in relation to my faeries. My faeries are The Ageless thanks to their Healing Factor, so they don't die very often.

I read somewhere that a year feels longer to a child than to an adult because it is literally less of our time. So, a twenty-year-old measures a year as one-twentieth of his life, while a six-year-old measures a year as one-sixth of his life, and the lower fraction equates to a longer perspective.

Now, the oldest faerie in the world is three ages old (an age being a span of ten million years). He has forgotten more things than most others will ever learn, has lost more friends than most others will ever make, has had his heart broken so many times he doesn't even remember the first hundred. It doesn't make sense for him to be driven insane but he can't be expected to function like a mortal creature, and I'm not sure what to do.

I only see three options: 1) I could make him purge his memory, 2) I could make him sleep for centuries at a time, or 3) I could make him have such a short-term memory that he forgets things within a year unless he uses the information.

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.

Some form of memory purge would probably be best.

In general, for anyone who's lived past ten thousand years of age, it'd be unrealistic to expect them to view the world or the flow of time in anything approaching a human perspective unless they've purposely employed some form of self-inflicted Mind Rape to make themselves more like the people they once were (which, to be fair, would probably be the smartest thing to do after experiencing so much).

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

Like I posted above, it's a Blue-and-Orange Morality when it comes to morals and relationships. A case of heartbreak is bad, but not the end of the world. To this fae character, eighty years together would be like "puppy love" in humans.

So a "marrage" or "long term relationship" would be centuries, even millennia to us. To him it's just the way it is.

As for memory, use The Fog of Ages: in Real Life, human memories are based on clues and neural impressions. Hence our memories can get blurry, change and we forget this.

• Ideals, events, emotions and even people blur together.

• Skills can be rusty, some will be forgotten. This can be a gold mine of plots, i.e. the character was a skilled swordmaster with a certain kind of sword a long time age. He's now forgotten and much, much latter encounters tales of a "fae grandmaster" who was The Dreaded and he finds out is was him.

• He'd view muggles like we view cats and dogs, cute short lived things that come into his life and then leave.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

It occurs to me the mind of an entity that is naturally immortal may well differ from that of a mortal, both in function and philosophy: the effects that apply to a mortal mind may simply not apply. Such a being might not be bowed under the weight of many heartbreaks, because they become inured to them, or because they weight positive memories equally or more highly, for example.

Of course, some effect may well apply; I rather like Taira's suggestion of an ancient fae encountering stories about him- or her- self that refer to great skills that have long since rusted through disuse.

Looking at Wikipedia, I see a number of explanations given for the effect. The one that you mention is described with reference to timespans on the order of a day; I'm far from an expert in the field, but I'm dubious of this being the explanation for the general shift in perception of time, although I could see it affecting assessments of the weight of a day in memory.

The linked article does offer additional explanations in changes in the brain related to ageing (which might not apply to an immortal character), and changes in brain usage (essentially suggesting that a child's brain is more engaged due to the relative novelty of everything, thus perceiving time more minutely, while an adult's, dealing more often with familiar stimuli, lets more slip by). That second effect I could see occurring in an immortal (albeit not necessarily), but I would expect it to plateau, not continue ad infinitum.

edited 11th Sep '14 6:18:09 PM by ArsThaumaturgis

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I do like the idea of a faerie having nightmares about a legendary bogeyman who he once was - that kind of thing could add a bit of comedy to the stories. Thanks for all the help by the way.

I think that's what I was talking about. I imagine the faerie in question would "plateau" as you said.

(Has more thinking to do)

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.

Ah, I see—as I read your post, I took the implication to be that the rate of perceived flow of time would increase without end.

Going back to the memory issue, I honestly don't see a problem with your character continuing on as before, without applying any of the three options that you described: could his mind not simply adjust? And you mention all the negative memories that he likely has, but surely he also has a great store of positive memories to balance out those negative ones? Memories of years of love to weigh against the heartbreaks, of decades of friendship to weigh against each death? I imagine that he might be somewhat inured to the pain of loss after all that time, and might not hold on as tightly to loved ones as once he did, but I could see such a being functioning well, I think.

(Of course, you know your character better than do I, I daresay, so it may be that such a viewpoint wouldn't fit with him.)

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There are really only four milestones in a faerie's life: his "birth", the acquisition of his first title, the "births" of his children, and the deaths of his parents - any faerie who outlives his child will likely become corrupted. So, when I said the faerie has lost so many friends and suchlike, I was trying to poetically say that he doesn't feel as intensely as he once did. He's pretty much like everyone has said he would probably be: fundamentally detached from everything around him. He doesn't see people (including other faeries) as cats so much as ants - "They think everything they do is so important, but if I step on them the cosmos will go on without them."

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.

Ah, I see. In that case, do I take it that the three options that you outlined above (memory purge, etc.) would be intended to allow him to connect with others again?

Hmm... Again, I'm not convinced that this disconnection would necessarily follow, given that your fae are naturally immortal, but it is plausible and again, I daresay that you know your characters better than do I. So, presuming that disconnection, another idea might be to shift his perspective via philosophy:

For one, just as there are humans who aren't willing to (consciously) kill such creatures as ants, he might come to conclude that, even though brief, the life of a mortal sentient is nevertheless important, at the least to that individual mortal.

Given his long memory, he might also in time come to note the long-term effects of individual lives: the motto of one man becoming the family words of his descendants and informing their actions, and their actions affecting kingdoms; a baker's choosing to give spare bread to orphans resulting in those orphans living longer than they might have, and one of their descendants growing up to become a great hero; etc.

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