Onimusha vs Devil May Cry

Which is Capcom's superior demon-killing quadrilogy?

I never liked the old DMC games and the massive love for them baffles me. Onimusha was more my thing with its horror elements and excellent Feudal Japan imagery. Also dat goddam music.

edited 12th Jan '14 2:57:03 PM by Nikkolas

Another versus thread, eh?

Isn't this just ground for argument?

Argument is a strong word. I'd call it discussion and debate.

I don't plan to argue in here at any rate because I haven't played most of DMC. I don't like it but I can't criticize it like I did with XIII, which I completed and thus could plainly see its many failings.

If you haven't played most of DMC, why do you say the love for it baffles you?

Because I tried playing it and didn't have fun. Plus I've seen all the cutscenes and heard all the reasons for why people think Dante is a fun hero and I don't think he was fun. I found him bland, stereotypical and trying way too hard to be "badass." I don't want to play a game where I control a character I absolutely cannot stand.

Although he wasn't so bad in 1. It was 3 turning him into an obnoxious tool that made me really hate him. I hear DMC 4 kept with that characterization.

edited 12th Jan '14 4:33:17 PM by Nikkolas

Not really? I'm biased here, since 4 is my favorite DMC game, but the whole point of 3 is that he's younger, and more obnoxious as a result. By 4, he's not the protagonist, so he's free to fuck around and not take anything very seriously. There's a couple cutscenes that illustrate this well, but overall it's just him content with goofing around and playing second fiddle to Nero.

But anyway, the real draw of the games is the combat, which gets greatly refined in 3 and 4. I'd recommend you give them a shot.

I used to hate Dante too, but what grew on me with him is that, well, he is a dork who tries too hard to be cool... manages to not get torn to pieces for it because he is a skilled fighter with superpowers.

Okay, more so it is because when you can make Devil May Cry's combat system work for you it feels really good to string up hundred hit combos involving real time weapons change between a purple electricity shooting, bat summoning guitar that can turn into a scythe, an anti tank rifle that can shoot ricocheting bullets and a three handled nunchuck that makes Dante scream funny Bruce Lee noises, periodically taunting to keep your stylish meeter from emptying in the brief periods you cannot pummel/juggle/shoot up anything.

That he double jumps by forming instant runes to kick off in midair, can slow his descent by akimbo firing two comically over sized machine pistols that never run out of ammo and has a style set that allows, with the right timing, him to "block" any "attack" up to and including falling in pools of stomach acid. Oh and all his devil arms have a different trigger (demonic form) that manage to retain all his inane battle cries and taunts.

Now, I am not actually too good at Devil May Cry so most of what I ranted on above does not usually end up working for me most of the time but it has been really hard for me not to see the appeal as I became aware of the stuff you could do in the games.

The other thing appealing about the series are its enemies. The freakish nobodies, the novelty of air born over sized sword vs giant pairs of scissors fights, six armed archers, anorexic implacable men wielding giant coffins, ect

Now, as to whether or not any of that makes it better than Onimusha? I will have to get back to you on that but my knee jerk response is that Onimusha probably is the better series, so long as it does not have any entry equivalent to Devil May Cry 2. That was mainly to summarize why people like Devil May Cry. Admittedly it is a silly premise on both accounts (plot wise it fills rundown areas full of murderous demons intent on the destruction of the world then shows a goofy guy who makes a living exterminating them. Game play wise it is get as many attacks on your enemies as you possibly can without allowing them to hit you back and without getting repetitive in the ways you hit them) but I really found it more enjoyable once I realized just how silly it really was. It was the fanbase that gave me the impression it was trying to be edgy or something (and thus turned me off initially to DMC 3 Dante trying too hard to cool)

-drops controller-

-turns off Devil May Cry HD collection-

-breaks disc-

-pops in Onimusha IV-

edited 13th Jan '14 4:06:56 PM by FOFD

Are you you trying to say you don't like DMC because of the skill ceiling?

Onimusha was great, from what I've played, but the 3rd Person Resident Evil camera and tank controls doesn't do it any favors.

Devil May Cry has my heart for more or less giving the Beat 'em Up genre a swift kick in the ass (and inspiring countless imitators that only few have been able to top).

Good luck getting me to take you seriously now.

edited 13th Jan '14 9:51:18 PM by Schitzo

I haven't played Onimusha, but I watched Maximilian's playthrough of it. It looks really good to me, but I think I'd still pick DMC even if I did play through all of the Onimusha games. I don't doubt that the Onimusha series is good, but I've never heard of its combat being praised much. I do know that the first game does have a good combat system though, but it's of a slower, more methodical kind. I can respect that, but I simply enjoy the power and energy felt in DMC, like that sweet impact of a Stinger. Of course, I need to see the rest of the Onimusha series, but this is just my first impression. From the outset, it almost seems like the two series could have shared a universe.

When it comes to bland protagonists though, I got to say that I find Samanosuke really boring as a character, so I don't know what kind of standards Nikkolas is going by. It is still just the first game I've seen, but Sam leaves very little impression, just seeming like the stereotypical stoic samurai. I don't hate the guy, and there is a coolness to that kind of character and he's got a nice design, but I have no interest in him, and that might be one reason I never picked up the series.

I just don't see Dante as trying to be cool, he simply does. I can't see him as trying to do cool things just to get attention. I think the big indicator is that Dante doesn't show any lack of confidence, he doesn't show any need to prove himself, he just does what he does because he enjoys it.

I think Dante's attitude throughout the games helps to establish the tone of the games, especially in a setting as dark and gothic as the DMC universe. The gameplay is supposed to be fun and exciting, but if Dante just acted like the typical stoic action hero you wouldn't get that same feeling. Dante displays the excitement that the player is feeling when they play. Besides, unless it's actually spelled out, you can't actually know if a character is actively trying to be cool, and it's usually a given anyway that the creators of said character usually want to make them cool anyway. So I highly doubt Dante would be trying in-iniverse to be cool. That said, I actually did find Dante in 3 to be kind of obnoxious, especially after I loved him in 1, but after playing the game it just kind of grew on me. His attitude fit the tone of the game, which was way more intense and spectacular that 1 was.

I wouldn't want Samanosuke to act like Dante because obviously the Onimusha games are going for a very subdued tone even with action. Or at lest when it comes to the first game. I get that Samanosuke is still a normal guy in comparison, and the game mechanics of the first Onimusha don't have as much to offer as DMC, but I feel like he was just lacking in emotion. He wasn't even coldly stoic, it just felt like he was kind of there. It never seemed like he felt any sort of urgency to save Yuki. I liked Kaede as a character more

It's not like Dante's in "goof off" mode all the time anyway. Lady really rubs off on him because he can identify with her family issues, and while he may start off acting cool when he fights Vergil, each fight with his brother always ends with Dante dropping the act when things get serious. The banter he does with Vergil before each fight seems almost like a formality between them. A big factor in the way Dante acts is that he usually doesn't need to worry. He knows how powerful he is and how to handle situations. He's the least serious in 4 because he has so much experience at that point and has grown so powerful, but he does get more serious when Nero might be in real danger. I kind of see Dante as being like the M-rated action game equivalent of Sonic in terms of character, but with more Blood Knight of course.

It's when someone tries to act cool when they're actually worried that you know that they're trying to be cool, instead of just being. Is it really that hard to believe that some people act like that just because they're having fun with what they do?

edited 14th Jan '14 11:41:57 PM by StarOutlaw

I just watched all the vids by this Max guy for Onimusha 1 and I think a big problem is the fact they played it in Japanese. not that the dub for Sam was great, but he wasn't as flat and bored as the Japanese VA. He inflected and you could tell he wanted to ave Yuki and whatnot. He wasn't "stoic" at all really, apart from his lack of facial animations. He got upset quite often as one might expect.

Out of curiosity, have these guys finished the game? There are only 13 parts on You Tube and they only go up to after the Hecuba (bug lady) fight. From the way you made it sound, I thought they had finished the game.

edited 15th Jan '14 2:24:07 AM by Nikkolas

I mostly know about it from The Dark Id and his Screenshot LP of the game.

They didn't finish it, but I'm pretty sure they're going to continue and finish it later. I might take a look at the English dub to hear the difference. I did check out some of the gameplay for the later Onimusha games and it seems like the combat at its core stayed mostly the same.

edited 15th Jan '14 3:26:28 AM by StarOutlaw

(x5)

I wasn't expecting or asking you to, though, I've actually played both series (Onimusha 1-4, Devil May Cry 1-3, and Dm C).

You want a serious answer? Onimusha is better-presented, more dramatic, but less marketable. Warped version of Japanese history, with quirky, demonic depictions of famous Japanese figures, heroes, generals, etc? The average gamer probably doesn't know who Nobunaga or Hideyoshi are. I sure as hell didn't until the game told me about them and I googled them.

Versus Devil May Cry which features a wise-cracking, handsome, white-haired demon hunter in a Badass Long Coat, wielding a BFS, and his sexy female sidekicks against hordes of demons inside ancient castles, ruined cities, and the occasional jog through the demon world. All you really need to know is that there are demons and the occasional biblical/mythological reference. And that the main character is a Bad Ass.

But its story and setting are weaker, and suffers from awful dialogue in certain places (I should have been the one to fill your dark soul with LIIIGHT). That said, it's still more ambitious and practically dedicated to the HSQ with over-the-top boss fights (like Dante playing hackysack with a demonic coconut in 4) and silliness (like Dante making a Shakespearean act out of the second fight with Agnus).

The plot is basically: "demon general sealed away the demons, the demons came back anyway, his son killed their leader, and then went off and had more adventures", which isn't a very noteworthy plot and hasn't really gone anywhere, with the third game being a prequel, and the fourth game's protagonist being the Hero of Another Story guest-starring Dante. Onimusha has more-or-less finished its story arcs and barely has any chance of getting a sequel. But the plot is more concrete - villains to fight, heroes to fight them, beginning, middle, and end.

If Onimusha is dramatic, then Devil May Cry is theatrical. Take the opening to Onimusha 3 and compare it to the opening of Devil May Cry 3.

Both series feature demons. Onimusha approaches the topic very seriously, demons besieging fortresses, appearing out of nowhere, attacking cities and slaughtering innocents leaving messes of corpses in their wake. Samanosuke is a samurai on a mission to slay the demons, one of very few people who stand a chance against them. There's very little room for comedy until you meet characters like Jacque and Ako.

Devil May Cry does not treat demons as a serious threat. And the franchise revels in that. It's about having fun, and kicking ass. The backstory about Dante looking for his mother's killer hardly matters in the grand scope of things, where Onimusha's Arc Villain, Nobunaga, his lordship over, and the threat of, the Genma (series resident demons) are very real and very prominent throughout.

Gameplaywise, Devil May Cry is simple but awesome, and Onimusha is can be tedious, but interesting.

Devil May Cry has a great soundtrack, and the third game reworked Dante's mechanics in what's probably one of the franchises most notable innovations, because the previous game was criticized for stripping the main character's personality and playstyle. The game's enemies are tough and bitter on higher difficulties. There is an adjustable difficulty setting, and one where enemies can literally kill Dante in a single hit, and vice versa. This is wonderful Gameplay and Story Integration, because the player is expected to be just as Bad Ass at killing demons as Dante is.

Onimusha has some phenomenal music, about as many bosses as Devil May Cry does without following the Capcom tradition of facing a Boss Rush toward the end. It's not quite the same level of difficulty that Devil May Cry exemplifies, but it does have sections like the towers where you unlock bonus weapons by stinting through a hundred-floor Fight Club, where all the demons decide to gank you, and you only have so many chances to go in there and prove your mettle. Each installment ramps up the intensity and demon-killing, until Onimusha 4 where the main character is literally a white-haired Super Saiyan fighting a giant snake demon in the sky, and prior to that was fighting gigantic demonic statues that didn't exist in the series prior. And that's kind of where you feel like they're jumping the shark, and coincidentally, Onimusha 4 is the last title in the main series.

Onimusha, to my knowledge, never had a Devil May Cry 2. It also never had a DMC that caused the fanbase to revolt, though it did have Blade Warriors which was kind of a non-canon spin-off fashioned after Super Smash Brothers. However, I owned a copy of it once, and it was actually pretty good. It took the Smash formula and translated it well, rather than trying to do its own thing like Playstation All-Stars.

(x6)

To be more precise, I'm implying that I'm getting my ass kicked trying to beat those shadowy demon dog things, as well as that roided-up Grim Reaper on the pirate ship, with almost no chance of getting an S rank on them because they're slippery as all hell, and someone walks in here and implies that the "fun" of the franchise is getting 100-hit combos regularly.

So that's a tad humbling, because 100-hit combos sound ridiculous to me.

edited 15th Jan '14 7:43:23 AM by FOFD

Those two enemies are probably the hardest in the game anyway, and few enemies in the franchise get as hard to fight as them in later iterations. You really can do well against them once you figure them out though, even if you aren't always pulling off massive combos, but they do take certain strategy and technique to beat compared to most. You really just have to experiment and observe to see what works and how them behave.

Back on topic, I guess you could say that while Onimusha has been more consistently good, I'd have to say that DMC has had higher highs, but I need to experience more of Onimusha, which I am seriously considering.

edited 15th Jan '14 6:40:43 AM by StarOutlaw

@Star Outlaw, Regarding your feeling towards Samanosuke, Tell me... what do you think of Soki from Dawn Of Dream, then?

His morals are similar to Sam's, but he is also a lot more emotive.

Some examples of him being more emotive then Sam include;

• Showing signs of embarassment when he sees Ohatsu's new, much more revealing armor.
• Feeling outraged when his old friend turned foe,Ohatsu, tries to defend the Cherry Trees which Soki has been hunting down since they are actually Gemma trees
• Showing anger when when Munenori Yagyu threatens Ohatsu ,who had just made a Heel–Face Turn, into going back to the Gemma's side.
• In a optional conversation, he shows delight when Jubei(not the same one from Onimusha 2) gives him Simmered Taro, that she prepared herself. Since, at a earlier time, he had show to have quite a fondness for that treat.

Not to disrupt, but I did want to isolate this point.

One way to describe the gameplay in Onimushas 1-2 is "Resident Evils 1 and 2 in Feudal Japan".

This is all strangely fitting, because Devil May Cry was originally intended as a prototype Resident Evil game to my knowledge, but became something else while the first game still showed elements of Resident Evil.

Yeah, both series are definitely spawned from RE, but in different ways.

I have only just barely scratched the surface of that game, but just from the examples you've given he sounds like he really invests himself in his mission and takes things personally, but I think I would like him.

Don't get me wrong, I think Samanosuke is still kind of cool, and he probably gets more fleshed out in the sequels. From what I've seen of the first game, and how it's structured like a classic RE game, there aren't necessarily a lot of characterization opportunities, and it's tough on his character archetype to do that. I wouldn't judge Chris Redfield's whole characterization just on RE 1, or even R Emake.

I've played more DMC than Onimusha (1,2,3 and 4 vs Dawn of Dreams) but I can say with certainty that the later DM Cs had much better combat than Dawn of Dreams, which I understand to be their contemporary. Which is not to say that Dawn of Dreams wasn't enjoyable, mind you.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I have never gotten anything like 100 hits and am perfectly content with a B-C ranking often. I'm just saying I can see the appeal, having seen people who have mastered the game to that extent.

Now I have not personally played the game but Samanosuke never seemed particularly bland to me, is that just comparatively to surrounding characters?

He's a Ronin trying to save his cousin, a princess, from being sacrificed to demons. His reactions tend to be horror and dismay at all the...horror going on. He has a partner, the ninja Kaede, who was originally tasked with his assassination but he spared her life after she failed and they developed a very close bond. Major Ship Tease considering the relatively sparse dialogue they exchange that isn't just shop talk.

His supportinv cast includes Kaede, who is a kind but badass woman, Yuki, who is every stereotypical damsel ever, a little kid, Tokichiro a carefree and rather annoying little monkey man, Guildenstern a Mad Scientist and Large Ham in all its glory, and then Nobunaga and Fortinbras, generic evil guys/demons.

A guy elsewhere compared Onimusha 1 to a Japanese fairy tale and I like that analogy. It's not about character development or arcs or anything fancy. Fight Evil Demons, Save Princes and the World. Along the way teach child that the whole Warring State Period is stupid because it's a bunch of people squabbling over little portions of land on a single tiny island. That was a scene Sam had with Yuki's adopted brother and I liked it. He talks briefly about how he left Japan and traveled abroad and learned just how ludicrous it was that people were constantly fighting and dying for essentially nothing.

[[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfgyDfmpg8I This is Guildenstern BTW.

You encounter a lot of "Books" written by him that give you a better look at him. He's kind of a Demonic A Nazi by Any Other Name as he supports the Genma Master Race and treats all other life forms as mere animals. Also he talks about it was through the Demon's efforts that Ganghis Khan and Alexander did so well. Not particularly deep but, hey, it's characterization enough.

Onimusha was created to be as cinematic as possible. Warlords is basically a blockbuster in video game form. The soundtrack, backed by the New Japan Philharmonic Orchestra, the cutscenes, the environments, it all really evokes the feeling of a movie.

Speaking of which, Onimusha vs. Devil may Cry in terms of Music. Everyone seems to love the DMC 3 soundtrack and from what I've heard, it is actually very good.

But better than Onimusha's? A select few examples of its greatness.

And to cap it all off, the Magnum Opus of the soundtrack, along with the masterful opening FMV which they spent $8 million on. The track is called "Rising Sun 1st Movement."

edited 15th Jan '14 6:33:53 PM by Nikkolas

Personally I like the fact that DMC can be mastered to the extent of being able to string together 100-hit combos, and get a SSS rank in most fights. I like games with high skill ceilings because it gives you a swathe of techniques to discover and master, and it show much the devs put into the actual game part of the game.

I've never played Onimusha personally so I can't really judge it but, I'm sure the story's better than Devil May Cry. That's because DMC doesn't really put much into the actual storytelling, opting for the hammy Saturday Cartoon Banter that's trying to make you giggle, relax, and have fun rather than get an emotional reaction.

I do however think that the world that's going on behind all the stunts and the ham and cheese of Dante is very interesting. If someone wanted to take a serious crack at it they'd have a good base for a great Urban Fantasy franchise, but sadly that's not what DMC is about, its about chopping up demons in the most extravagant way possible, and the fanbase likes it that way.

The high skill ceiling and giggle inducing "oh yeah" moments in the game's programming is essentially what draws me into DMC.

The DMC anime is amazing and well worth watching because of the setting. Also, Dante's a tad more serious in it than he is in 3 or 4.