Duplicate Trope: Touche

As the trope description points out, this is when "character graciously admits defeat while trying to save face". The thing is, that is exactly what the trope Graceful Loser is also about, and the name Touche is the Stock Phrase commonly used in such situations. Furthermore, Graceful Loser is performing much better, with 587 wicks / 118 inbounds, compared to Touche's 36 wicks / 52 inbounds shared with its two redirects Well Played and Defeat With Grace.

Since we don't generally name tropes after phrases, and since these tropes are about the same thing, I would suggest merging Touche into Graceful Loser, pointing all redirects to the latter.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

I agree with a merge.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I'm not 100% opposed to this proposal, but here's an alternate take. Almost any time that I hear "Touche." used, it's as an acknowledgement by Bob that Alice has just made a very effective counterargument to Bob's point or refuting of his statement, or has said something in response to Bob that levels the playing field between them in some way. There's a great strip from Questionable Content where the latter exchange happens between Marten and Dora's father but I'm not where I can access the comic right now to find it.

I think it should be made into a specific subtrope of Graceful Loser for that precise instance.

edited 7th Aug '13 5:59:10 AM by Willbyr

I'm with Willbyr. (I haven't had enough coffee yet to be quite coherent. More detailed reasoning later...)

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Yeah, I noticed they were really similar when it came up on IP. I'd be fine with a merge. I'd also be fine with Willbyr's suggestion of making Touché basically "You Have a point there."

Somewhat off-topic, do we have a Graceful Winner trope?

edited 7th Aug '13 6:10:01 AM by Larkmarn

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Basically, I think Graceful Loser is for someone losing a major battle, while this is closer to Actually Pretty Funny, but for logic instead of jokes.

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Thank you, Duck. That's what I was trying to figure out how to say. Graceful Loser is at the end of the battle (physical or not). Touché is used for minor points before the battle is over, or in ongoing confrontations and conflicts that neither side expects to actually, finally "win".

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

So maybe the description is just not clear enough.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Agree with Willbyr's assessment of the trope. I think this is a Not Thriving type deal rather than a Duplicate Trope type deal.

Checking the YKTTW, this was a definite premature launch. While it apparently predated the hat system it was only left up for the bare minimum three days. I suggest we send it back to YKTTW for entry pimping and possible rename to something that isn't a stock phrase.

Here's the QC strip I was referring to.

Willbyr and Duck have said what I wanted to. This trope is more similar to Actually Pretty Funny or perhaps Jerkass Has a Point than Graceful Loser.

Comeback Acknowledgment or Retort Acknowledgment would be a more proper trope name, but I think that might make it too broad.

Looking over the examples, it seems that there is a distinction after all. Curse the sleep deprivation of mine; I should have noticed earlier.

That said, the wick/inbound statistics aren't exactly golden. I would check some of them to find out how the examples are written; awkward fitting-the-trope-name-in-the-sentence is the source of many problems in dialoguey trope names.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I don't think the name is bad. While it is something that's commonly said, and can perhaps be described as dialogue, it also is the word to describe this particular situation, so unless it's potholed incorrectly a lot, I wouldn't change the name.

This may be one of those tropes that are about a small situation, so people are more prone to overlooking it when adding examples.

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I think this name is just asking to become one of those verbal tic tropes that we're trying to get rid of, like So Yeah and I Am Not Making This Up.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

It's got only 30+ wicks since April 2011. That doesn't seem like a I Am Not Making This Up situation to me.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

And honestly, that kind of misuse might bring attention to it, which may leave it with more examples when it's time for cleanup... But unless I actually see that kind of misuse, it's just speculation.

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Some tropes seem to get out of it better. I Have Nothing to Say to That would be doomed to be red if only there aren't 18 links.

The thing is, "touche" as a line of dialogue is only ever used when the trope "One person acknowledges that someone else they are in conflict with (it may be a very minor conflict) has made a good point." is in play, unless you're dealing with a work or scene about fencing.

That's the only exception that's really allowed for line-of-dialogue trope names. And any other trope name would be longer and probably less clear.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Ok, so in that case we're at "clearly define this as a subtrope of Graceful Loser and clean up the description", yes?

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

That's not what I'm reading from this. Granted, Defeat With Grace should be redirected to Graceful Loser, but this and Well Played are not an acknowledgement of the match but the acknowledgement of a point. What saves that from being The Same But Less is that "Well Played" is at least half the time followed up by "Now I shall have to use my full strength against you!"

In essence: With Graceful Loser, the argument has been won/lost. This Trope is about the acknowledgement of a setback or reversal, usually momentary, though Graceful Loser could follow this.

EDIT: I found a quote that I feel adequately expresses the difference. In this passage from the X Wing Series, one of Wedge Antilles' squadmates is facing a Court Martial and the Prosecuting Counsel has him on the witness stand. He had just answered a question in a way that did not divulge any of his direct beliefs.

By the end of his testimony, the aggressive line of questioning that Counselor Ettyk pursued had Wedge feeling like he had let his squadmate down. Ettyk did not concede, rather she gained some tactical ground in the trial, however small.

edited 13th Aug '13 12:23:34 AM by DonaldthePotholer

Great example. A shorter way to put it would be, in a figurative sense, "won the battle but not necessarily the war."

Even better. Long as we're clear it's a metaphor for dialogue, though.

edited 13th Aug '13 10:03:24 PM by StarSword

I'd say "won a skirmish, but not the battle or the war."

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Under further review, it seems like, while the description and examples fit better under Graceful Loser for the most part, the title of "Touche" and"Well Played" are what's out of place.

Support sending the present examples to Graceful Loser and shunting the Trope back to YKTTW for revision.

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