Disney/Pixar In General

Did it? I agree that there was zero foreshadowing, but I don't recall anything contradicting it either.

They showed Hans looking all in love after his encounter with Anna, having quite a sappy look on his face, in a scene in which nobody but the audience was watching him. That counts as lying to the audience, because you can't even interpret it as deliberately misleading in the sense that it means something else than what the audience could expect.

And, again, if Hans is the villain, his actions don't make any sense. The only way his whole heroic act could be somewhat believable would be if he were the cleverest villain around, and in this case, he would have never been so cruel to Anna and then left her alone to die, he would have stayed with her and played the oh so concerned lover.

Recall when Anna and Hans met for the first time. As Anna was walking away from Hans, we saw Hans look at her and smile. This scene wasn't from Anna's POV, it only existed for us as the audience. And we saw Hans with a sincere smile, like he was legitimately fond of Anna. This is the movie outright lying to us.

Edit: Ninja'd

edited 23rd Jun '18 5:55:07 AM by Nightwire

I dunno, couldn't he just be smiling about the promise of money and power?

Wait, I thought the "Love is an open door" number was a foreshadowing thing for Hans' villainy? Like, didn't it show Hans glancing at stuff that isn't Anna?

edited 23rd Jun '18 8:59:03 AM by TargetmasterJoe

Not really...there was another love song written for the movie which actually does foreshadow how self-absorbed Hans is. But Love is an open door is the opposite of that, there is no foreshadowing whatsoever in it except maybe Hans pretending that Anna is finishing his sentences correctly which can be just as well read as him thinking around the corner the same way she does or her just indulging her because he likes her.

I highly doubt that. This is so obviously not a scene meant to mislead the audience but on which you can look back after knowing the twist and see that it totally makes sense. It is an outright fabrication by the narrative.

There's misleading your audience with vague information in order to preserve a twist, and then there's presenting your audience with patently false information that contradicts what comes after. Frozen did the latter.

edited 23rd Jun '18 7:37:30 AM by Nightwire

Probably a reason Han need more limelight on a fanciful personality. His own music number describing how much he fawns over money and power would have made his behaviour more comically consistent.

Frozen could have been a super hero princess movie (hero girl has magic ice powers,learns to control them,we get an origin story why she has those powers,and later uses those powers against someone with similar set of powers) but they they went with a princess with powers but no villain to challenge her,but maybe in the sequel..

I knew creative ideas aren't things to form a marching protest over, but I really do think some action needs to be done to convince Disney to use it less in their movies. Really, has anyone made a montage of all the scenes in their movies with villain twists? I recall one artist doing that for the trope where a main character opens the movie with a narration, explaining everything to you.

edited 23rd Jun '18 8:21:22 AM by kyun

I agree that the genre of Zootopia necessitated a twist villain in a way that most of the others didn't. The contradictory information from Hans is precisely why I thought Bellwether was a massive improvement. I've seen Zootopia enough times that I would have noticed if something was cheating and haven't. I also don't necessarily think her openly villainous scene is necessarily indicative of her not having her nervous personality, since this does show one of the few times where she very clearly (in her mind) has the upper hand, and once she's caught, the mannerisms return.

I don't think you can use genre as a blank check to blindly follow conventions that don't help your story. That's just lazy writing. And honestly, a problem I had with Zootopia is indeed that it follows the conventions of buddy cop movies too closely.

I'm not a fan of the idea that because a story's in a certain genre, it has to follow strict story conventions even if they actively make the story worse and more predictable. But even if I accept that dubious premise... well, that still doesn't make Belwether a good twist villain. She's maybe not as clumsily executed as Hans was, but the twist's easy to see coming and Belwether's never developed as an interesting character despite the fact that her plot drives most of the story. That alone is worthy of criticism as far as I'm concerned.

edited 23rd Jun '18 9:01:30 AM by DrDougsh

Except that it doesn't...it does for the first half of the movie, but every other movie would have ended with Judy revealing that the major or whoever was behind everything, getting respect and brining Nick on the force. And the brilliant thing about Bellweather is that yes, she is the villain, but she can only do what she does because "fear always works".

That... kind of is what happens in the movie. Judy uncovers the villain, gets respect and brings Nick into the police force. Except it's Belwether instead of the Mayor. Not really a fundamental difference.

edited 23rd Jun '18 9:51:19 AM by DrDougsh

The big difference is that the Mayor is the Red Herring / Patsy. Given the mystery nature of the story, a layer of false culprit is a common and often necessary way for said plot to be resolved beyond the audience's expectation: for the last act to involve the hero discovering some new angle that changes what the audience expects and pulls the plot into a its final direction. It's a simple false conclusion, since it is a movie directed at children first (Bellwether being the villain is pretty obvious from the moment Lionheart is implicated), but it's one that makes sense and is well executed.

Genre conventions aren't always conventions simply for the case of laziness. Sometimes they're there because they work.

I think the problem is that Bellweather and most of these twist villains may work in their role, but that's about it. They exist more as plot devices for the more developed heroes, not really to be that enticing in their own right. Their general character when The Reveal happens is about the same, a Smug Snake Hate Sink, sadistic, murderous, arrogant of their own control, and then acting like a pitiful little weasel the moment they botch everything.

Bellweather sticks out because given her past, they could have easily made her a Tragic Villain instead of going down the predictable route of making her a sinister little matriarch (the fact they shoe horned in a shot of her with big contemptible smirk when Judy seemingly gets mauled sold they were trying to make her as one dimensionally evil and hatable as possible). I mean totally vile villains work, but if they're all of the same pacing and character mould they get old.

It's rather ironic, most of the time, especially in animation, it's the villain that's the more interesting character compared to the hero, or at the very least is the one their to compensate for the latter's bland qualities.

edited 23rd Jun '18 11:27:02 AM by Psi001

Also unlike Hans, plenty of background info can be seen towards Bellwether.

According to Matt Chapmon "Legend Of The Three Caballeros series is being made at Disney Interactive and by the most talented people he's ever worked with.◊

Okay, I'm officially excited!

I feel that the "working with the most talented people" compliment is so overused that it becomes generic and insincere.

I'd say that depends on the person making the claim.

Also, apparently the reason why they didn't go for a different style here, decades after the movie came out, is because this is made for European audiences, where Donald is extremely popular and where a mass fan riot would erupt if they took any liberties from his classic design.

> where Donald is extremely popular and where a mass fan riot would erupt if they took any liberties from his classic design.

More like as part of the branding Donald has to retain his classic look,they've very specific when it comes to depicting their characters

Just a quick round-up of all the upcoming Disney animated shows coming in 2018 to 2019, thanks to Disney Television Animation News:

Disney Junior

•      Gigantosaurus (2019): 
  A new full CGI animated series◊ follows four young dinosaur friends as they go on adventures and attempt to discover the secrets of Gigantosaurus, the biggest and fiercest creature of all. The series is based on the book of the same name by Jonny Duddle and published by Templar Publishing.

•      The Rocketeer (2019) 
  "A new animated adventure series aimed at kids 2-7 and inspired by Dave Stevens’ comic book series. Kit, a young girl, receives a surprise package on her birthday revealing that she’s next in line to become the Rocketeer, a legendary superhero who has the ability to fly with the help of a rocket-powered jet pack. Armed with her cool new gear and secret identity, Kit is ready to take flight and save the day with her gadget-minded best friend, Tesh, and airplane-mechanic uncle, Ambrose, who join her on epic adventures."

•      T.O.T.S 
  "The hilarious adventures of best friends Pip and Freddy, a tenacious penguin and a kind-hearted flamingo, who are the only non-stork delivery birds in-training at Tiny Ones Transfer Service (T.O.T.S.). As new members of the esteemed team, these junior flyers must take tender care in transferring baby animals. Together, they will learn how to nurture and care for the babies and use creative thinking and problem solving to model for young viewers that there isn’t just one way to achieve a goal."

• The Owl House: Already has a thread.
• Amphibia : Already has a thread
•      101 Dalmatian Street (Fall 2018) 
  The series takes place in 21st century London◊, and follows the adventures of eldest siblings Dylan and Dolly, their parents Doug and Delilah, and 97 younger puppies whose names also all begin with “D”. Based on a pitch by Anttu Harlin and Joonas Utti from Finnish studio Gigglebug Entertainment, and developed by Disney’s original animation team in London with Oscar and BAFTA winning Passion Animation Studios, the series is written by Maria O’Loughlin and directed by Miklos Weigert. The series will be produced in the United Kingdom, with Passion Animation Studios in London as the lead producer. 101 Dalmatian Street has been commissioned for 48 x 11 min. episodes, as well as two special 22 min. episodes.
•      Viking Skool (2019) 
  Originally pitched towards more mature audiences, The series is being produced by Ireland’s Cartoon Saloon (“The Secret of Kells,” “The Breadwinner”) and France’s Samka Productions (“Jamie’s Got Tentacles”).The series will follow a group of young would-be Viking warriors in an elite Vikingskool. The group will embark on a series of humorous and exciting adventures in a mystical world. At the heart of the tale are three best friends: Erik, Arnie and Ilba, each with their own unique Viking strengths and weaknesses. The series’ 26 half-hours are scheduled for broadcast at the end of 2019.

•      Space Chickens In Space 
  Space Chickens In Space is a surreal new comedy◊ designed and directed by Norwegian twins Tommy and Markus Vad Flaaten. Telling the story of a trio of chickens who are mistakenly taken from their homes and enrolled in an elite intergalactic military academy, the series was created by José C. García de Letona & Rita Street, with Jordan Gaucher serving as showrunner.

• The Legend Of The Three Caballeros: Already has a thread
• Monsters Inc: The Series (2019)
• "The Muppets Show" reboot.

edited 23rd Jun '18 9:23:35 PM by XMenMutant22

Glad to know Disney hasn't forgotten about the Muppets at all. (Well, the grown-up Muppets.)