Duplicate Trope: Ryu And Ken get usage counts

Total posts: [126]
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1 Spark927th Apr 2013 08:52:08 AM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
The page Ryu and Ken isn't really sure what it wants to be, and so ends up all over the place. It basically gives an Example as a Thesis about the famous duo from Street Fighter, then lists a number of tropes that may or may not apply to them, and asserts that this "pattern" is common even though it isn't clear what pattern is meant. So, the page is about two characters that have either similar appearances and/or abilities, that "often" end up as main characters of the series, and that "may" be The Rival, Friendly Rivalry, Palette Swap, and/or Red Oni, Blue Oni. It then lists several other tropes that may or may not apply to this duo.

Ultimately, though, this is not a trope. This is a list of tropes that have, at some point, applied to Ken and Ryu from Street Fighter. Nothing wrong with that, except that it's already covered on those other tropes as well as our main page about Street Fighter.

You can tell from the list of examples how incoherent this really is. It lists some characters from fighting games that have the same movesets. Then it lists other characters from fighting games that are related, rivals, or look similar even if they don't have the same moves. Then it lists a bunch of duos that are main characters of a game even though they look wildly different and have different abilities - such as Sonic and Tails. Or characters that are Palette Swap of each other, such as Bub and Bob. Or characters that are The Rival, such as Goku and Vegeta. Or how about Buffy and Kendra having a similar fighting style. It even lists lions and tigers as a real-life example, although I have no idea why. Apparently, Jackie Chan and Chuck Norris also constitute an example somehow.

So yeah. I'm at a loss what to do with this, but it's clear that it needs some kind of repair. Finding a clear definition (that's not redundant to some other trope) would be a good start.

edited 27th Apr '13 9:04:43 AM by Spark9

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2 SeptimusHeap27th Apr 2013 09:53:07 AM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Huh? To me the description looks like a straightforward Battle Duo trope. Examples are all over the place, though.
The way I understand it, this is two characters with the same moveset. Or it should be, because the rest of the things the description talks about are almost certainly covered better elsewhere already.
4 Spark927th Apr 2013 03:48:12 PM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
The thing is that "battle duo" is covered by Bash Brothers.

Also, "two characters with the same moveset" is covered by Palette Swap as well as Shoto Clones. Note that, as of Street Fighter Alpha (the one between 2 and 3, released eighteen years ago), Ken and Ryu no longer have the same moveset, making the trope namer Not an Example.
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5 AnotherDuck27th Apr 2013 05:32:14 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
It's not Not an Example if it is an example in one game. Later games don't make earlier games non-existant. That said, the name is bad, as it doesn't hint at what trope the two are an example of.

As a trope, I think #3 said it best: Two characters with the same or similar moveset. This is covered by Palette Swap, but it can be broken out as its own trope if you define Palette Swap as a visual copy, and Ryu and Ken as a mechanical copy.

Shotoclone is different, though, as it refers to a specific style that has been Palette Swapped over many unrelated games. Examples on Shotoclone are a bit confused, though, so that trope may also have its share of problems.

edited 27th Apr '13 5:35:16 PM by AnotherDuck

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Dragon Writer
Palette Swap is a visual trope only, start and stop. Whether or not the two characters share similar gameplay characteristics is irrelevant.

edited 27th Apr '13 8:06:58 PM by Stratadrake

7 AnotherDuck28th Apr 2013 06:36:41 AM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
"In 3D game development, however, changing only the colors has mostly died off, but there are similar variations. Because animation is no longer tied directly to models, it is much easier to create new models and textures for a character while still using the same animation set. Clever code can even allow you to use differently sized characters with the same animations."

That states it is also about keeping the animation, even if the graphics are different. That's why I suggested splitting the mechanical part out, as the difference between having exactly the same movement and having similar movement can sometimes be hard to spot, and are of no difference as a trope.

I think the main problem is that it's about changing parts of a character, but not being that specific about what to change. As I see it it's basically a supertrope about reusing some parts of a character to create another one, and subtropes about how you do it.

edited 28th Apr '13 6:41:07 AM by AnotherDuck

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Dragon Writer
I don't think it's a good idea to be hijacking a pre-established term for that. Texture swap, yes, but expanding it beyond that is asking for problems.

edited 28th Apr '13 6:53:14 AM by Stratadrake

9 AnotherDuck28th Apr 2013 07:07:55 AM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
[up]Is that a response to me? It doesn't add up either to what I said, or what the trope is currently defined as.
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10 Spark928th Apr 2013 01:35:20 PM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
I believe that the 3D counterpart of Palette Swap (reusing models with a texture swap) is covered by the awkwardly-named Underground Monkey.
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11 AnotherDuck28th Apr 2013 01:53:26 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
What trope would the four groups of racers fit in Super Mario Kart? We have Mario and Luigi who're The Marios, Bowser and DK as the fast with slow acceleration ones, Peach and Yoshi as the fast accelerating but slippery ones, and Toad and Koopa Troopa as the small ones with excellent grip. Or Mitsurugi and Hwang in Soul Blade? Basically the same moveset, except that Hwang shares his kicks with Mi-na and Han-myeong.
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12 Spark928th Apr 2013 02:05:07 PM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
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13 AnotherDuck28th Apr 2013 04:45:14 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
I think that's specifically about factions of various kinds, rather than separate characters. Considering the discussions about allowing factions/races on character pages, I'd be hesitant to lump these together as well. On the other hand, they do play with the same idea.

I'm really starting to think that a supertrope like Design Copying would have its place. There are a bunch of tropes that are variations on that theme.

edited 28th Apr '13 4:48:17 PM by AnotherDuck

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14 Larkmarn28th Apr 2013 08:23:05 PM , Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
I think non-videogame examples need to be axed. The video game ones (and the definition) are alright; they're characters that share a moveset/play similarly.

Then every other section just begins to list characters/people that... have something in common. Maybe they're the rival, or evil counterparts, but as long as they have some similarity, apparently they're fair game. This also applies to many of the video game examples too... a lot of them are characters who just are related, even if they play nothing alike.

edited 28th Apr '13 8:29:50 PM by Larkmarn

Dragon Writer
^^ I agree that there's a Missing Supertrope in Recycyled Resources or something. To me, trying to shove non-visual similarities into Palette Swap is just plain ol' Square Peg Round Trope.

edited 28th Apr '13 11:23:04 PM by Stratadrake

16 Spark929th Apr 2013 02:04:37 AM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
I think a good solution would be to make a sister trope of Cosmetically Different Sides (called e.g. Cosmetically Different Characters, but I'm open to suggestions) and create a supertrope for the pair of them, and for Palette Swap, and for other related tropes like Cut-and-Paste Environments.

We could even use this page for that, even though it means deleting most of its content. That said, I think the misuse on the page makes clear that Ryu and Ken is not a good name for the trope.

edited 29th Apr '13 3:31:03 AM by Spark9

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18 Larkmarn29th Apr 2013 01:00:06 PM , Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Moveset Clone? They may actually play differently despite having similar movesets. For example, Captain Falcon in Smash Bros is a Lightning Bruiser while his clone Ganondorf plays completely different, being very much a Mighty Glacier.

edited 29th Apr '13 1:01:52 PM by Larkmarn

19 Noaqiyeum29th Apr 2013 03:42:19 PM from a thought-experiment gone horribly wrong , Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The it-thingy
I like Cosmetically Different Characters.

I like Recycled Resources as a name, but what comes to mind is not a game design trope but an in-story crisis that requires using finite pre-existing parts to deal with an entirely unrelated problem (i.e. the round peg/square hole adaptor in Apollo 13).
Clones is an established term in Smash Bros. fandom, and Moveset Swap is established in Brawl hacking, so keep that in mind when naming the YKTTW. (That's why I favor Moveset Clone.) Aversion in a sequel is Divergent Character Evolution.
21 AnotherDuck29th Apr 2013 08:34:59 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Well, just to be clear: Do we have consensus to rename this trope in the first place? There haven't been any objections, but the thread isn't that long either.

There's not that much misuse, but many examples are poorly written in a way that doesn't explain the trope. And the Real Life examples don't really apply. I mean, listing animals would mean every animal that has any kind of closely related species would fit. The trope isn't "two similar things". It's about expanding a character roster without really having to create a new character from scratch. Or sometimes to highlight two different aspects of a particular style.

Also, I don't really think defining it as Cosmetically Different Characters or Moveset Clone or whatever is a change in what it is. A lot of examples focus on the relationship between the characters, but that's not really the point of the trope. That's just defining a trope after one example, and tacking on a little too much from it.
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22 Larkmarn29th Apr 2013 08:57:28 PM , Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
I, personally, don't think a namechange is necessary. I'm not against it, mind. I'm fairly neutral on that matter. I do, however, think clean up is in order. There are lots of non-examples and whatnot.

If there is a namechange, then I don't like Cosmetically Different Character since that just means Palette Swap and said characters usually play pretty differently, but are clearly built upon the same base.

edited 29th Apr '13 8:58:23 PM by Larkmarn

23 NativeJovian30th Apr 2013 09:37:18 AM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
I'd support a rename if someone can show misuse. "Ryu and Ken" could refer to several different things even if you're familiar with the characters they're referencing, so it's not a great name, but if it's not being misused then no point trying to fix what ain't broke.
Petting Zoo Person
I never used this trope because I thought it was just Red Oni/Blue Oni or Luigification again, being unable to parse its definition. I think Moveset Clone or Shared Moveset should become the new name, since this one is opaque and tells us nothing about what it really means.
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Alternative Titles: Ryu And Ken
12th Jun '13 6:01:02 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:

Total posts: 126
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