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Misused: Esoteric Happy Ending
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Misused: Esoteric Happy Ending get usage counts

 51 Tuckerscreator, Mon, 6th May '13 1:23:18 AM from The Death Star Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Every film should end with a Deus T. rex Machina
Since I added the Rise of the Planet of the Apes example, I guess I might as well explain it, if not necessarily defend it. Sorry if I'm derailing this thread.

For those who haven't seen the movie, the film ends with an upbeat shot of the victorious apes having settled in the San Francisco Redwood Forest gazing majestically towards the sunset. It comes off as esoteric because the tone is triumphant, yet the implication is that they're looking out at the world they're going to conquer. However, given as the mid-credits scene reveals the death of humanity via airborne plague that is treated with horror, I get the feeling that said triumphant shot was meant ironically, and that we were supposed to feel at odds with cheering for the apes that will kill and conquer humans, despite us having sympathized with them throughout the film. Perhaps that should be made more clear in the example, that it was likely invoked.
I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with a tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari-Kiri rock.
 52 Native Jovian, Mon, 6th May '13 7:36:44 AM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
I'm not sure that anything actually needs to be changed about the definition, here. It's about endings that are presented as happy, but aren't interpreted that way by the audience. Pretty straightforward (although we might want to include a disclaimer a la The Untwist's, where any ending can become unhappy to someone sufficiently determined to see it that way).

There's definitely some misuse, though. Seinfeld is listed, for example, and I don't think that anyone was supposed to believe that "all the main characters get sent to jail" is a happy ending.

I'd suggest rewriting the description to make it clearer (without actually changing the definition) and purging bad examples. I don't think we need to do anything else, here.
I definitely oppose C; I think the resulting A trope would come off as B But More Specific.

It's a completely different thing from Bittersweet Ending or Fridge Horror. It's not bittersweet, it was intended as a completely happy ending. It's not Fridge Horror because the unhappiness is immediately apparent.

It's more like Happy Ending Dissonance, but specifically relating to dissonance between the author's intent and the audience reaction.

The essential point is that the creator intended it as a happy ending, but it is immediately apparent to the audience that it isn't.

Let the Right One In, for example, I would say it's not an Esoteric Happy Ending because the creator fully intended the audience to realize the implications.

edited 28th May '13 9:51:25 AM by skittyoung

 55 Willbyr, Sun, 2nd Jun '13 6:21:37 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Crowner's hooked.

edited 2nd Jun '13 6:22:44 AM by Willbyr

 56 Septimus Heap, Tue, 2nd Jul '13 12:14:50 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Bumping for votes.

 57 nrjxll, Tue, 2nd Jul '13 12:34:22 AM Relationship Status: Not war
I'm still not sure how this is more than Fridge Horror specifically for endings. The counterexample given didn't really seem like it should be an example at all.

Edit: Now that I look at it again, the leading crowner option would address both of those issues, but only at the cost of making it possible to list literally any ending for anything as an example.

edited 2nd Jul '13 12:45:50 AM by nrjxll

 58 Septimus Heap, Tue, 2nd Jul '13 12:43:49 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I guess it depends whether you have to first think about it a little.

Also, I suspect that some people ignore that issue out of annoyance with folks that have watered-down standards for The Same but More Specific when it comes to Audience Reactions.

 59 Native Jovian, Tue, 2nd Jul '13 6:36:31 AM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
A "fridge horror happy ending" would be something that seems like a happy ending at first, but if you think through the implications of it, actually ends up being unhappy. An esoteric happy ending is an ending that is presented as happy (upbeat, triumphal music, all the characters laughing and smiling, etc) but for whatever reason, the audience doesn't see it that way — no Fridge Logic required.
 61 Madrugada, Sun, 7th Jul '13 1:42:40 PM Relationship Status: In season
With Mod Hat On
And just so you don't have to follow a link...

Esoteric: a. Intended for or understood by only a particular group.

The name is completely divorced from the definition.

The ending of Atlas Shrugged could be considered an Esoteric Happy Ending using the correct definition of "esoteric" — the only people who will put the book down at the end satisfied with the way it ended, are those who follow the same philosophy as Rand did. Everyone else will be dissatisfied, horrified, or let down.

edited 7th Jul '13 1:43:21 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
I think the intent of the name might be that the "particular group" might be "the writers", and possibly those who agree that it's a happy ending, but yeah. TL;DR: "You Keep Using That Word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 63 Noaqiyeum, Mon, 8th Jul '13 10:02:05 AM from a thought-experiment gone horribly wrong Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
"Intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest."

I.e. only a small portion of the audience are likely to understand why the ending could be considered happy.
"I know I raised more questions than I answered, but I hope now we are all confused on an higher level and about more important things."
 64 Madrugada, Mon, 8th Jul '13 10:05:06 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
[up]Yep. That's about the size of it.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
 65 My Final Edits, Thu, 1st Aug '13 10:34:59 AM from Venezuela Relationship Status: Desperate
Jack of all trades, master of none
This trope should only apply for when the work has no sequels. If it has sequels which indicate that the original "happy ending" was anything but, it's then Happy Ending Override.

For example, those Zelda examples don't fit. OOT's alleged happy ending was already overriden for the worse by its sequels (MM, TWW, TP), so it should be removed.

edited 1st Aug '13 10:36:58 AM by MyFinalEdits

I need something nobody can give to me. Something nobody wants to give to me. Thus something nobody will give to me.
 66 StarSword, Thu, 1st Aug '13 10:46:21 AM from somewhere in deep space Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
I'm guessing Inferred Holocaust would be an extreme form of A?
 67 Another Duck, Thu, 1st Aug '13 10:48:20 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
[up][up]I'd say sequels don't matter. The trope is about a self-contained ending. Whatever happens after that isn't relevant. A sequel can still play up the negative part of the Esoteric Happy Ending, but if that is present in the original ending, it still fits. If it's a new development it doesn't fit.

For that reason, the Zelda games that refer to sequels don't qualify. Or at least those parts of the examples, since you can still define the trope from the games themselves in some of the examples.

edited 1st Aug '13 10:48:28 AM by AnotherDuck

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 68 Native Jovian, Thu, 1st Aug '13 9:29:52 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
So, the top option is at +24 with a 13:1 ratio, and the next highest one is at -8. Seems like we can call that a winner, yes?
 69 My Final Edits, Fri, 2nd Aug '13 12:01:29 AM from Venezuela Relationship Status: Desperate
Jack of all trades, master of none
Shouldn't we wait until a deadline comes or something?
I need something nobody can give to me. Something nobody wants to give to me. Thus something nobody will give to me.
 70 Septimus Heap, Fri, 2nd Aug '13 12:20:13 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
There is no "deadline" or whatever, and it's been open long enough.

[up][up] "Deadline" is basically the Three Rules of Three. In this case, did the votes look the same three days ago? It's a guideline, not a "must always do after". Some crowners run longer, very VERY few go shorter. grin

edited 2nd Aug '13 8:09:43 AM by crazysamaritan

Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
 72 crazyrabbits, Fri, 2nd Aug '13 2:16:55 PM from Mississauga, ON, Canada
Crazyrabbits
The crowner's been hooked for two months. At this point, anyone arguing to keep it running is behind the times. It's gone on long enough, and arguing to keep it open on the off-chance that a flood of new people will suddenly change the course of direction is wishful thinking.

Call it.

IOU one title
Why isn't there an Esoteric Bad Ending trope?
What do you mean?

Expansion has 28 supports and 2 opposes.

 75 Another Duck, Mon, 19th Aug '13 11:25:33 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
[up][up]Because no one has created one. Possible for reasons.
Check out my fanfiction!

Page Action: Esoteric Happy Ending
2nd Jun '13 2:45:48 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
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