Unclear Description: Humanoid Abomination

Pardon, but this seems like exactly the sort of definition stretching we're trying to get rid of.

Sepiroth's moral code sounds weird but not Eldritch to me.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Then we should get rid of the "may have once been human" clause if we're aiming for a strictly "Eldritch Abomination in human form" definition.

edited 14th Mar '13 2:58:51 PM by Arawn444

I doubt it. Whether they've been something in the past doesn't affect their current status.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I thought it was agreed that an example doesn't have to follow Blue-and-Orange Morality (it even says so in the current description), so Sephiroth's moral code being "weird but not Eldritch" doesn't necessarily mean anything. Even leaving aside the issue of his morality, he more-than fits the bill on a number of other qualifications.

Not all the other examples have incomprehensible motives, for that matter, and I'm talking about the examples in the sections that have already been trimmed: Naraku from Inuyasha has fairly human motives because he was once a human before he assimilated millions of demons into his body. Pennywise from Stephen King's IT was an otherworldly force of destruction, but her motives could be boiled down to the comprehensible goal of feeding herself and she held a grudge against the Loser's Club.

edited 14th Mar '13 4:27:16 PM by Arawn444

Most about Sephiroth concerns Jenova rather than Sephiroth himself. He's really more of a half-human, half-Eldritch Abomination. He touches on many points, but at the whole is just too human. I think he's a good borderline example of what the trope isn't.

In reponse to #100, this might get lengthy due to quotations for context. I might trim it down to just the numbers.

1. Is the character's humanoid form merely a disguise or covering for something more along the line of an Eldritch Abomination? Would seeing this true form drive a human mad? Is it too alien to comprehend?
Check. At the Northern Crater, Sephiroth outright states that his human form is A Form You Are Comfortable With that he intends to eventually discard, and after he completely assimilates Jenova he undergoes two transformations - Bizarro Sephiroth? and Safer Sephiroth? - far more in line with a traditional Eldritch Abomination. In Advent Children, Word Of God stated he was even more powerful than he was in Final Fantasy VII, and in other material he has starred in he creeps people out. For example: Firion: "You make me shiver... what are you?!"
I'd attribite that to Jenova. He intends to become more than what he was, but what he actually is isn't what he claims. The last battle shows his true form.

2. Do they have other madness-inducing properties?
Check. He broke Cloud pretty badly in both the original game and Advent Children, and he was capable of creating mass illusions and hallucinations as well as telepathically controlling people infected with Jenova cells.
Jenova, not Sephiroth. It's also about people who're not exactly stable to begin with.

3. Are the character's motives or behaviour incomprehensible by any conceivable moral code? Are they somehow Above Good and Evil? Or conversely, if they are evil, is it more incidental than deliberate? (Meaning, is their goal something so far beyond us that harm to humans is a negligible side effect?)
Kind of. Sephiroth's ultimate goal, as he described it in Advent Children, amounts to "Eat the planet and use what's left to find other planets to devour." Getting revenge on Cloud for stopping him the first time is the icing on the cake.
Not incomprehensible, and wanting revenge on Cloud humanises him.

4. Origins: Did they originate in some sort of Eldritch Location, such as another dimension or a rip in reality? Are they the offspring of, or otherwise created by, an Eldritch Abomination? Or are their origins unknown (due to Time Abyss, their alien nature, etc.)?
Double Check. Jenova is a shapeshifting, parasitic extraterrestrial creature of unknown origin that basically exists to devour planets. Sephiroth starts off as a Half-Human Hybrid infused with Jenova cells as a fetus, but later pulls a Grand Theft Me on Jenova itself. Jenova's will may or may not be influencing him, as his ultimate goal is to follow in its footsteps.
Jenova, not Sephiroth.

5. Are they a subject of, or connected to, a Cult or Religion of Evil?
Kind of. Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo give off a pretty cultish vibe in Advent Children, and they are imperfect manifestations of Sephiroth created to resurrect him.
Less cult and more children or clones.

6. Do they use a Lovecraftian Superpower rather than conventional magic or typical superhero powers?
Kind of. The "Sephiroth" encountered throughout VII had a habit of dropping pieces of himself to kill the party, but that was Jenova's main body being remotely controlled by Sephiroth. Sephiroth himself, when fighting in Advent Children, utilized the Masamune - which at that point had become an extension of his body, but it's more or less implied that as long as Jenova's cells exist Sephiroth will never truly die.
That's him using Jenova's powers, rather than his own. It doesn't make him the abomination.

7. Do they defy the fundamental laws of nature or magic?
Check. He successfully resisted being assimilated by the Lifestream twice and his plan involved devouring said Lifestream, which resulted in the WEAPONS being awakened. Even after his second death his very presence in the Lifestream started corrupting it. Since magic in the VII universe is the result of crystallized Lifestream and Sephiroth can use most magics without Materia due to the sheer amount of Lifestream he absorbed, he kinda defies the laws of magic as well.
No. He doesn't defy the laws. He's still using the Lifestream's power for magic, and resisting it is never said to break the laws of nature. Mako energy is in that case also breaking the same laws.

8. If they are a villain, is the tone of the work deeply pessimistic about the possibility of them being defeated completely?
Check. Having a supernatural asteroid dropped on the world is about as completely defeated as one can get.
I never got the impression there was any kind of impossibility of defeating Sephiroth. Surviving was more a matter of bringing him back retroactively than something present in the tone of the work.

9. Is the genre of the story Cosmic Horror?
Check. Compared to the other Final Fantasy games, VII is definitely in the vein of Cosmic Horror.
But not compared to other Cosmic Horror Stories.

Check out my fanfiction!

You have a fair point, but Sephiroth did merge with Jenova, and he's still half-Eldritch Abomination. The last point alone should qualify him. Word of God states that in Advent Children that he "ascended to a new level of existence" following his second defeat and "thinks on a level higher than humans", and that he was animated specifically to emphasize how otherworldly he was.

edited 14th Mar '13 4:29:10 PM by Arawn444

The last point alone should qualify him.

Pardon, but tropes don't work like that. If a trope has several criteria, any example failing one of them is wrong.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Then the Video Games section should be gone through again, because the only examples of Final Fantasy villains that truly qualifies is Cloud of Darkness, who is an Eldritch Abomination in the form of a woman. For that matter, other borderline examples like Naraku should be taken out, because he is initially humanized by his love for Kikyo.

edited 14th Mar '13 4:34:34 PM by Arawn444

...Naraku isn't a Humanoid Abomination in the slightest.

Then I'm curious as to why was he left in when the Anime and Manga section was cleaned out. O_o

edited 14th Mar '13 4:57:20 PM by Arawn444

Cleanup crews do not usually know about the work.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

A question: if guys like Aizen, Naraku, and Sephiroth don't count as Humanoid Abominations, is there even a single straight example of a Humanoid Abomination that originated from a human, 'cause it looks like all the other examples are just Eldritch Abominations in human form - and if that's all we want in this article then the discussion should be edited to prevent people from adding anything else in.

I think that kind of humanoid abomination is generally from pure cosmic horror stories where someone 'delves too deep' or whatever and makes themselves into a freaky horror.

I'm almost hesitant to ask, but would post-Eclipse Griffith, aka Femto, count?

Both of the two on the page I have some direct familiarity with are debatable, but I lean towards including Doctor Manhattan and Alma, I think. However, it is much rarer than the other way around. (EDIT: For the reason stated by Arha.)

I think part of the problem is that Blue-and-Orange Morality has a lot of overlap with and is used as a placeholder for something like Blue And Orange Psychology... I think the idea is that while some of their behaviour may parallel human standards of ethics or seem to have motivations that make sense in some ways, whatever is at the core of their psychology is necessarily not 'human'. If they are reasonably describable in terms of human psychiatry, or are for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from an ordinary human in a bizarre situation, they don't count.

The difficulty with this definition is that human psychiatry is very broad and very misunderstood - the fact that we used to have a Real Life section and people on the discussion page have suggested adding 'sociopaths' and 'malignant narcissists' should speak for itself - and what we would basically be trying to do is qualify the boundary between 'human' and 'non' in the space of a single trope page. Fuzziness is inevitable.

However, Sephiroth (and for that matter The Tall Man, to refer to the previous discussion) seems to be able to threaten, scheme, manipulate, and rationalise as well as anyone. I think these cases are pretty clear.

I have unusually high standards for the Abomination tropes and have been accused before of being overly restrictive, so I made a conscious effort to err on the side of inclusion if I wasn't familiar with the example and it seemed to make a good case.

edited 14th Mar '13 6:35:57 PM by Noaqiyeum

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

I see your point. However, I have to ask: if Sephiroth isn't a Humanoid Abomination - even though he starts off as half-Eldritch Abomination - then what exactly is he? Half-Human Hybrid only applies to him in the prequels and flashbacks because he pulls a Grand Theft Me/Fusion Dance on Jenova and in Advent Children is stated by Word of God to have "ascended to a new level of existence" following his resurrection. In essence, he goes from being a Half-Human Hybrid to an Eldritch Abomination in human form with the psyche of said human in control. Also, It's funny that you mention that what defines the psychology of a Humanoid Abomination is that, as you put it, "whatever is at the core of their psychology is necessarily not 'human'", as Sephiroth is an odd example in that regard: Square-Enix has variously stated that Sephiroth's will crushed Jenova's and that Jenova is the one pulling Sephiroth's strings. I guess that while Sephiroth might not perfectly qualify as a Humanoid Abomination, he definitely qualifies as a high-level Monstrous Humanoid - should it become a new trope.

And there are examples of Abominations, humanoid or otherwise, that are capable of threatening, scheming, manipulating, and rationalizing at a human(ish) level. Pennywise was plenty manipulative, threatening, and scheming when it came to dealing with the Loser's Club and wanted revenge for them injuring It as children - but It was still an extra-dimensional shapeshifting predator with a true form beyond human comprehension.

Back on topic: An idea that might help to clear up a bit of confusion: why not divide the page into sections for Humanoid Abominations that were once human, and ones that are genuine Eldritch Abominations in human(oid) form?

edited 14th Mar '13 11:11:11 PM by Arawn444

Authors writing beings who are Eeeeeeeevil with a Capital Eeeeeeee and have bizarre otherworldly powers and calling them incomprehensible things from the beyond are why I get accused of being too restrictive. :P

Personally I don't think Pennywise is a very good example, but it's hard to argue when Nyarlathotep sets such an iconic precedent for that sort of behaviour - even if it rather undermines the themes of nihilistic alienation from the incompassionate universe if the soul of the Outer Gods is so very personal - and Eldritch Abomination is taken as so unquestionably synonymous with Lovecraftian Monstrosity...

As far as the trope is concerned, though, that's not a very satisfactory answer. It's not a very elegant solution to have the beings who started as human have to pass stricter requirements than the ones who didn't, but it's not really inherently unreasonable either. It's just two alternate measurements for You Must Be At Least This Inhuman To Be On This Page.

...not that being on this page is some sort of reward or validation for an example, which is a lot of what's wrong with the Abomination pages as a whole. -_-

Might not be a bad idea, but soft-split pages tend to become hideously messy and accumulate duplicates in the wrong sections.

edited 14th Mar '13 10:59:38 PM by Noaqiyeum

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

That's because Lovecraft's horde of psychic alien squids and extra-dimensional amoebas are the Trope Codifier for Eldritch Abomination.

I suppose you could say what qualifies as an Eldritch Abomination may differ depending on the context (i.e. sci-fi vs. fantasy) in which it exists. Lovecraft's lot made occasional cameos in the Conan the Barbarian universe, and in some cases were absolute pushovers when confronted by powerful socerers and swordsmen used to dealing with big, ugly, monsters. Even if something as mundane in fantasy as a D&D-type dragon were to suddenly pop up in real life, it would be such a violation of the laws of the natural world as to be nigh-incomprehensible. People wouldn't go: "Oh, a dragon. Cool." They'd go "OMFG! WTF is that thing?! It looks like a dragon but that's impossible because dragons don't exist!" and then wet themselves out of terror and possibly be traumatized for the rest of their lives.

edited 14th Mar '13 11:29:14 PM by Arawn444

No soft splits. They just turn the page into a jumbled mess.

Re Sepiroth: There should be a few tropes covering him, but not Eldritch Abomination.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

You're probably right, but I have yet to find a trope that describes him as well as Humanoid Abomination. I mean, what else do you get when a human pulls a Grand Theft Me on an Eldritch Abomination and retains human form? I just figured that since Sephiroth was a Half-Human Hybrid of an Eldritch Abomination and in Advent Children his body is completely composed of said Eldritch Abomination's cells that he would qualify as one. Looks like the FFVII character page needs an adjustment. =_= I went to the discussion page there, mentioned HA was being redefined, and posited classifying Sephiroth as "Ambiguously Human" instead - although by definition that still doesn't fit him perfectly either - and am pending reply, though judging by how heated some of the other arguments have gotten it could get ugly.

edited 15th Mar '13 12:21:26 AM by Arawn444

I just said this in another thread, but I think what fundamentally distinguishes an Eldritch Abomination - or one of its subtropes - is more authorial intent and narrative presentation than it is any specifically delineated list of traits. The whole "You Must Be At Least This Inhuman To Be On This Page" mentality (man, I'm going to quote that every time this argument happens from now on) is just utterly the wrong approach to take. It's not a hard and fast line.

In fact, I think if there's any one source for misuse, it's trying to draw one - it leads people to judge what qualifies on the wrong criteria. Taking the current conversation, for instance, Sephiroth probably meets all of the legalistic requirements to be a Humanoid Abomination, but he doesn't have the presentation.

I made the exact same point 4 posts up; you just worded it more eloquently. ^_^ As for Sephiroth... yeah, I'd have to agree. He's definitely intended to be one but lacks narrative presentation.

edited 15th Mar '13 12:05:37 PM by Arawn444

This exactly.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

The thing is, authorial intent is often in the eye of the beholder, unless there's an actual Word of God going "I was trying to do X".

Take Sephiroth again:

Is he? The game goes through great length to give us his Start of Darkness. And before that, humanizing him, like as he talks with Cloud about Cloud's childhood how nice it must be to have a home to return to, etc... Even as the game sets him as a villain, it goes through great length to humanize him and make the player understand why Sephiroth does the evil that he does when he finally snaps.

So, what is the authorial intent?

edited 15th Mar '13 12:50:38 PM by CobraPrime