Welcome to the Content Violations Discussion forum, where we discuss whether a work violates The Content Policy.
Remember that the forum rules apply here
, plus the following:
- You don't PM moderators about stuff pertaining to the policies, except for thread reasons;
- We tolerate links to scanlation sites unlike in the rest of the site due to its purpose, although it's preferred to remove them when they have done their jobs;
- The forum is not a soapbox for your own views on the policy or on morality. Please leave them at the door.
Violations of these rules can result in a ban from the subforum, or from the entire forum.
Otherwise:
Also, keep in mind that there are works that we don't want flagged without a really good reason as they are not likely in violation of policy:
- Is a film rated below "R" for U.S. distribution.
- Is a show that can be aired on prime time television.
- Is a video game that is rated below "M" by the ESRB.
- Is a written work that is sold in major bookstores without an "adult" or "mature" label.
- Is an anime/manga/etc. that is approved for U.S. import as a non-adult work.
- Is read/shown/taught in high school or below.
- Is in another format and meets equivalent criteria.
What we're looking for:
- Pure porn, or porn with an Excuse Plot only,
- Anything that has explicit underage sex,
- Implied sex of preteens or younger, and
- Fanservice intended to cater to pedophiles (lolicon and shotacon fanservice can count).
A couple of guidelines so the procedure can move smoothly:
- Do not list whole indexes or works just because they are on a certain index or have lolicon, H-Game or shotacon on their trope list.
- Do not list works you know nothing about without at least reading the trope page.
- Do not list works that you know are G-rated but you find creepy.
- If it's paedophile-pandering approximately how old are the characters involved? What happens? Is it graphic? Is it merely implied?
- List what objectionable content there is, and how much of the work consists of that.
- If it's entirely sex, say so. People have different ideas of what porn is. We all have the same idea of what a work being entirely sex scenes is.
- If you're not sure about a work, say so, or ask someone who does know that work. But don't make blanket accusations. Post here: "I don't know about this work, but the page says X".
- Google and Wikipedia are your friendsnote . Do a little digging on works you aren't sure about.
Also, in the case of H Games, there is this questioning to fill up:
- When are the sex scenes located?
- Are they spread out over the game?
- How much gameplay is there between sex scenes?
- Are they only at the endings?
- How hard do you have to work to get an ending?
- Are they in every ending? Every good ending?
- Are the sex scenes optional via a choice in the menu?
- Would the story make sense without them with minimal or no rewriting?
- Are the scenes made up of stills, or are they animated?
- How explicit are the sex scenes?
- This isn't a headcount. Your opinion is only considered if it explains in at least some detail how you came to the conclusion that the work is/isn't porn/paedopandering.
- When a moderator determines that the discussion has yielded a consensus, they can enact its conclusion/ask a moderator to enact the conclusion.
- The discussion is only about whether the work qualifies as porn or as paedopandering. We don't assess anything else in this process.
.
Q: Why is this happening?
A: Concerning the porn, it tends to attract creepy edits that have brought us into issues with the adservers while not significantly contributing to our core purpose - tropology. Concerning paedophilia-pandering, such works are just plain creepy to have pages about.
Q: What can I do to help clean the site?
A: You can flag content as unsuitable using the flag tool, which is located in the Tools menu to the right of each article, keeping the criteria in mind. Also, you can help enforce No Lewdness, No Prudishness across the wiki, possibly though cleaning pages listed in this Long Term Projects thread.
Q. This episodic work isn't finished yet. Shouldn't we wait for the ending before discussing it?
A. No. If released instalments may violate the content policy, we want to take action as soon as that's established — we don't need to wait for the ending. We can always revisit a decision to cut or keep once the work is over, but that point might still be years or decades away.
Q: This work is not actually/primarily pornographic. Why was it cut?
A: This could be for a number of different reasons. If the work was deemed to be paedopandering, for example, it will be cut whether or not it's actually sexually explicit. Being pro-paedophilia or pandering to paedophiles is bad enough, even if the work is nominally anti-paedophilia. Of course, it's possible that there was a mistake and then you should appeal it - please check the reasons first, however.
Q: This work is being/has been cut, but it is not a violation of the Content Policy. How do I make an appeal?
A: Flag the work page using the button in the sidebar and state your reasons for restoration.
Q: This work is pretty much pure porn, but it's really good porn. Can an exception be made?
A: Nope, sorry. If it's mainly porn, it goes.
Q: Why would you cut this? In [culture x], it is totally acceptable.
A: The vast majority of our readers come from the Americas or Western Europe, so we will be adhering to what could broadly be termed "Western" standards. This means we will not be permitting works which sexualize 12 year olds, and nor will we be demanding that every picture of a woman on the site must wear a burqa.
Q: How can you possibly claim to know authorial intent? (Roland Barthes is my co-pilot.)
A: It is not important what the authorial intent was, only the outcome.
Q: Wikipedia have articles on all kinds of awful stuff. Why can't we do the same?
A: Wikipedia is a strictly academic site. They have to cite sources and a "no censorship rule". They also do not aim to be Family Friendly, and are not reliant upon third party ads for funding. Conversely, one of our stated aims is to celebrate fiction, and our generally light, non-negative tone is a reflection of this, which has led to much more gushing about inappropiate content.
Q: So should I take every article here as an endorsement of whatever it describes?
A: No, of course not. We have pages on Greedy Jew, Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf after all. However, if we choose to focus our attention on schoolgirls' thighs or porn, it does reflect very poorly on us. Fan Fic Recommendations are a slightly different issue. If a work is recommended there, this should be taken as an endorsement by the troper who wrote it.
Q: Are we allowed to make forum threads about works processed by the Content Violation Discussions forum?
A: If it was voted "clean and keep", a forum thread is relatively safe as long as it is restricted to talking about the clean parts. Anything with a stronger judgement is discouraged on the forums.
Q: Where can I find decisions regarding a work?
A: They are linked from the discussion page. Sometimes the old list of content reviews or the thread list in this forum can help as well.
Q: I still have some questions/concerns.
A: We will be happy to answer them. There is a thread for this.
- Guro: Violence played for titillation. (contrast Gorn)
- 5P or P5: The panel that administered the policy prior to the review system being overhauled in 2022. See 5P.
- P(a)edoshit: Older term for "P(a)edopandering", deprecated for being inflammatory.
- Porn: A work mostly concerned with sexual arousal. Having NSFW or explicit scenes doesn't automatically make a work porn — it's when showcasing explicit scenes is the entire point of the work.
Also, questions about the policy can be asked here. They will be added to this thread's FAQ section once answered.
Edited by Mrph1 on May 5th 2024 at 6:00:30 PM
@Adannor
" Mimi of Mnemosyne looks like a child but is really much older thanks to her immortality.
She's not presented in any fanservicey way, IIRC, however her looking like a child and drinking vodka like water is a character trait that I believe should be tropable."
Unless we consider the fairly risqué lesbian groupsex in EP 5 as fanservice...
Sorry, I couldn't help mentioning this. :)
Adannor, Mimi was in a lesbian orgy. If that's not fanservice I don't want to see what you would consider fanservice.
Anyway, this should go on the restoration thread.
ninja'ed because I kept the tab open for half an hour.
edited 23rd Oct '12 12:22:47 PM by Discar
Lost in Space
Just FYI, Legal Jailbait seemed to have accumulated some misuse for characters that the audience finds attractive, despite not being placed in any kind of sexual situation involving adults. This is probably why it got cleared. There is nothing in there that cannot go in Older Than They Look and thereby lose the drooling aspect.
In particular, putting examples that are not sexually objectified within the story in our wiki article makes us look like creeps.
edited 23rd Oct '12 12:31:15 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
R.I.P 2 My Youth
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Pretty much my feelings on the issue.
☆♥☆
Is Legal Jailbait just Older Than They Look but for titillation? If not, by removing fanservice entries, what's even the difference between Legal Jailbait and Older Than They Look? Does it even need a page then?
Lost in Space
Legal Jailbait is a valid trope. In particular, it can show up in Crime And Punishment shows (a particular episode of Law And Order Special Victims Unit comes to mind), where a character undergoes persecution either for looking young or for dating a person who looks young.
However, nearly all examples of Legal Jailbait are also examples of Older Than They Look and as such can go there when they are dealt with In-Universe. The Out of universe examples... the less said about those the better.
The few rare exceptions are characters whose natural sexual maturity comes at a very young age relative to humans, AND they are anthropomorphic to the point where they can be treated as human-like for purposes of relationships. That is... well, let's just say that we're lucky if 90% of those are not played for fetish fuel, and we do well to just skip them.
edited 23rd Oct '12 12:50:08 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
>lesbian orgy in EP 5
I forgot that I only watched up to 4 >.<
edited 23rd Oct '12 12:59:53 PM by Adannor
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
How about we make a Trope Talk thread for discussing Legal Jailbait's definition (and possible reworking), in the same vein as we are doing for Naughty Tentacles? I have a few ideas about clarifying the distinction between it and Older Than They Look et al.
^That sounds more like Trope Repair Shop work. And as I mentioned at the page top, this ain't the appropriate thread for discussing specific pages.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lost in Space
I don't see any point in TRS'ing it. Eddie has said it shall remain exampleless. I'm simply providing a justification.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Where did he say that? Or are you referring to the commented-outed note in the article?
edited 23rd Oct '12 1:41:08 PM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Lost in Space
I am taking Eddie's deletion of examples and leaving of a comment to indicate that he wants the page left blank, yes.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I read the 2nd paragraph and that does not answer the main "why" question.
Ok... Many were cut because they were evaluated as being pandering to pedophiles. Why is that a problem?
Why do you want to throw away works that can have really good value (tropewise) but you are keeping works that, for example, are completely stupid in how much violence it has.
I can't really see a reason for that.
What you are mostly answering here is a "because". As one of the tropers that likes anime and hates to see good works to disappear from tvtropes why don't you give an answer that is logically complete?
We just need an answer that is not a half answer or just leaves lose ends, live you've been doing. We need an answer with a beginning, a middle and an end. Something that explains the details behind the choices of this addition to the getting rid of porn. Something that we can conclude that it really makes sense and we cannot fight against because that point of view is actually really correct and really does make proper sense.
I sure hope I can finally understand the real logical reason behind what is really being made here, on tv tropes.
I loved tv tropes... I hope I'm able love and support it again.
You still need to read the second paragraph of the Content Policy - Ctrl+F "creepy" and you should find it.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lost in Space
You can still talk about anime. Just not anime that panders to pedophiles or is pure porn. That's the policy and that's how it's going to remain.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
No, the other one.
It's a case where a minority ruins things for the rest of us.
Check out my fanfiction!
I'm almost tempted to create a page for Film.Pretty Baby just because I'm curious about how P5 would deal with it, but to be honest I'd have a hard time coming up with tropes for it. TV Tropes doesn't do well with non-genre fiction.
Not a lot of Anime Hair, and not even a single one of the 22 different types of Ranged Energy Attack Tropes in a story about WWI era New Orleans prostitutes.
Oh! You mean the 3rd paragraph!
Hum... According to it, you are removing because it is creepy. Why aren't you removing all that is creepy, then? It does not make sense! What it says is that you are removing what is creepy. If you are removing what is creepy, why are you not removing all that is creepy, then?
How come a moe image is creepy? I see them and don't see anything creepy in it. A prepubescent girl having sex with a man is creepy. Why an image of a young girl with less clothes creepy (for the record, I don't mean with hard core "sexy outfit")?
You are still not giving a complete logical answer. From what it seems, "creepy" is subjective.
Creepy is indeed subjective, which is why we have the 5P.
The "creepy" addressed here is the one associated with the sexualization of children. Yes, it's very specific.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Cool Dude
And it's for that exact reason that we even have a group of people like the P5 to try and decide what is "too creepy" for this website to present.
edited 25th Oct '12 10:26:20 AM by Raidouthe21st
We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)
R.I.P 2 My Youth
@Catbert: Go for it. We don't preemptively censor stuff here, unless it is in blatant violation of wiki policy (like something that is unambiguously porn).
edited 25th Oct '12 10:51:01 AM by tdgoodrich1
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen
Why isn't the P5 properly representing the majority, then? An acceptable amount of works (that are anime) that were cut for being paedopandering they just didn't represent the majority of tv tropes users' opinion. They kept cut. It didn't happen once. I already count 4 times, now. With one of them quite recent. If we have the P5 we better have good representatives of the top 5 PO Vs of the users who visit tv tropes. The current P5 do not seem to be doing that job the best way.
Because this isn't a democracy. Before the 5P, it was "Pages that the admin thinks are skeevy are gone", which was even worse.
Oh, and the tropers here aren't a representative sample of the troper body. Many "hardliners" have either left, don't participate here much or were banned.
edited 26th Oct '12 3:43:07 PM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
Yeah, we picked the P5 from tropers who we thought had the best understanding of the policy, as well as some other qualifications that I don't care to list. We were willing to take input from the userbase, but there never was a plan to decide stuff by vote or by polling the tropers.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
I don't feel that this is the right place. Page Restoration Petitions is the better place to go.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman