*bump*
Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.Get a Single Prop crowner up and running.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanHere it is. Hollering to hook.
Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.Isn't "the villian whose actions drive the plot" automatically the Big Bad? The section that says otherwise is using a conflicting definition: "frequently the largest role", which is probably why this thread got started in the first place, the conflicting definitions. Since the laconic agrees with the second version (and I can understand that), can't we solve most of the problem by just removing the "actions drive the plot" part?
We're mostly dealing with plot-driving-villian vs. primary-antagonist. The Heavy sounds to me like it should be fully defined as the primary antagonist. I also voted in favor of the name change.
From the page: "This can be the Big Bad, but is more often The Dragon, since keeping the Big Bad mysterious generally makes him scarier."
"Antagonist" is closer to The Heavy than Big Bad, though the antagonist doesn't need to be a villain.
edited 1st Feb '13 6:15:01 PM by AnotherDuck
Check out my fanfiction!Crowner hooked.
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - FighteerLooks like "the heavy" only means "the villain", so we're making it a bit more specific than common usage. Of course, just a rename won't fix this—the description itself needs to focus on The Trope Formerly Known As The Heavy being the "hands-on" cause of the hero's problems, not the ultimate cause (i.e. The Big Bad).
Though many of the examples on the page are bad, there are a few good examples of various types of "heavies" (restricted to examples I was already familiar with, for confirmation purposes). Spoiler warning, of course.
- Unrelated to the Big Bad
- Seymour from Final Fantasy X is trying to hijack living cataclysm Sin, and provides the main obstacles to the party's progress between the first failed attack on Sin and the party's final attempt to destroy Sin.
- The Dragon or (at least initially) occupying a similar position
- Kai Leng from Mass Effect 3 is the only villain to fight Shepard multiple times, and one of the few villains to interfere with Shepard's plans instead of having Shepard throw a wrench in theirs. He mainly serves the Illusive Man and has no major agenda of his own.
- Col. Quaritch Avatar is only around to serve Parker Selfridge (as the local rep for the MegaCorp), but takes matters into his own hands when negotiations with the Na'vi fail and is the villain who must be defeated to end the conflict. (Quaritch is the Dragon-in-Chief, which is a trope full of "heavies")
- Azula from Avatar: The Last Airbender is clearly only serving her father, the Firelord, but he doesn't get in on the action until a full season and a half after Azula's been attacking the heroes for him, and only takes matters into his own hands in the finale.
- Darth Vader in A New Hope captures and interrogates Leia, fights Obi-Wan, and is the most dangerous opponent flying in the final battle, while The Big Bad Grand Moff Tarkin—who has all of two scenes with any of the heroes—is the one in command of the Death Star and thus the villain whose plans must be stopped in order to save the day.
- Turn out to not be the Big Bad after all
- Saren from Mass Effect seems to be the one behind the geth attacks and four times personally steps in to interfere with Shepard—other villains get two encounters at most.
- The Big Bad
- The Joker in The Dark Knight spends the entire movie making everyone dance to his tune.
- Blackbeard in Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides is trying to control the Fountain of Youth and quite hands-on with his leadership.
If we can get this trope a better description, we can probably leech off a lot of the bad examples using The Big Bad as "the villain the hero faces at the end of the movie", such as The Abomination from The Incredible Hulk (an underling until he goes crazy in the final act, and the real Big Bad and The Hero have to team up to stop him).
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.The Heavy's description seems clear enough for me, so as long as you follow the "first sentence is critical" part.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanThe name's more than merely confusing—it's downright ambiguous, as seen when I listed the several meanings found in the dictionary earlier. The description doesn't seem too bad to me, but I never object to adding clarity.
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.Yeah, this name is awful. Gave the rename a
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanI agree that the name is really the only problem. The description could use a few tweaks here and there, but it's the name that's the issue.
Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.I'm cool renaming. It's a pretty bad title.
Rhymes with "Protracted."Looks like we're pretty set on renaming. I've set up an Alternative Titles crowner here, and I've added an EWISOTT suggestion for an alternate title (though I'm not voting it up because I think we can do better). Hollering to hook.
edited 4th Feb '13 9:54:50 PM by WaxingName
Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.Plot Driving Villain sounds a little too close to Villains Act, Heroes React.
I mean, I guess this trope is just very close to Villains Act, Heroes React in general, so, I dunno.
edited 5th Feb '13 12:31:58 AM by troacctid
Rhymes with "Protracted."That the names are close reflects the fact the tropes are close as well.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanHow about something of a smaller change, like The Heavy Role?
Check out my fanfiction!That is very ambiguous, unless we want to explain the trope to non- villains.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanSometimes I think rename threads should direct their attention to laconics instead.
Check out my fanfiction!Huh?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanAre you suggesting the title be "Villain Who Does The Most Stuff"?
Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.Is there a point to this trope? Villain that Drives the Plot is all it seems to be, and that's really dumb.
I laugh in the face of suffering.Maybe we do need to more specifically define the difference between Big Bad and The Heavy. I honestly can't; is there anyone who can?
Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.It's not so much that it overlaps with The Big Bad; it's a People Sit On Chairs.
I laugh in the face of suffering.I think you're thinking of this, which is the Omnipresent Trope.
Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.
Crown Description:
To vote, access the crowner directly.
Uhhh. . . The Mover-And-Shaker? Primary Effecter of Plot (not a typo)?
edited 7th Dec '12 9:20:03 PM by Pig_catapult