Unclear Description: The Heavy

Deadlock Clock: 14th Aug 2013 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [187]
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26 Pig_catapult7th Dec 2012 09:19:38 PM , Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Uhhh. . . The Mover-And-Shaker? Primary Effecter of Plot (not a typo)?

edited 7th Dec '12 9:20:03 PM by Pig_catapult

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28 SeptimusHeap18th Jan 2013 07:38:32 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
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[up]Here it is. Hollering to hook.
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Isn't "the villian whose actions drive the plot" automatically the Big Bad? The section that says otherwise is using a conflicting definition: "frequently the largest role", which is probably why this thread got started in the first place, the conflicting definitions. Since the laconic agrees with the second version (and I can understand that), can't we solve most of the problem by just removing the "actions drive the plot" part?

We're mostly dealing with plot-driving-villian vs. primary-antagonist. The Heavy sounds to me like it should be fully defined as the primary antagonist. I also voted in favor of the name change.
31 AnotherDuck1st Feb 2013 06:11:21 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
From the page: "This can be the Big Bad, but is more often The Dragon, since keeping the Big Bad mysterious generally makes him scarier."

"Antagonist" is closer to The Heavy than Big Bad, though the antagonist doesn't need to be a villain.

edited 1st Feb '13 6:15:01 PM by AnotherDuck

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33 Ironeye3rd Feb 2013 04:05:04 AM from SoCal , Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Looks like "the heavy" only means "the villain", so we're making it a bit more specific than common usage. Of course, just a rename won't fix this—the description itself needs to focus on The Trope Formerly Known As The Heavy being the "hands-on" cause of the hero's problems, not the ultimate cause (i.e. The Big Bad).

Though many of the examples on the page are bad, there are a few good examples of various types of "heavies" (restricted to examples I was already familiar with, for confirmation purposes). Spoiler warning, of course.
  • Unrelated to the Big Bad
    • Seymour from Final Fantasy X is trying to hijack living cataclysm Sin, and provides the main obstacles to the party's progress between the first failed attack on Sin and the party's final attempt to destroy Sin.
  • The Dragon or (at least initially) occupying a similar position
    • Kai Leng from Mass Effect 3 is the only villain to fight Shepard multiple times, and one of the few villains to interfere with Shepard's plans instead of having Shepard throw a wrench in theirs. He mainly serves the Illusive Man and has no major agenda of his own.
    • Col. Quaritch Avatar is only around to serve Parker Selfridge (as the local rep for the Mega Corp.), but takes matters into his own hands when negotiations with the Na'vi fail and is the villain who must be defeated to end the conflict. (Quaritch is the Dragon-in-Chief, which is a trope full of "heavies")
    • Azula from Avatar: The Last Airbender is clearly only serving her father, the Firelord, but he doesn't get in on the action until a full season and a half after Azula's been attacking the heroes for him, and only takes matters into his own hands in the finale.
    • Darth Vader in A New Hope captures and interrogates Leia, fights Obi-Wan, and is the most dangerous opponent flying in the final battle, while The Big Bad Grand Moff Tarkin—who has all of two scenes with any of the heroes—is the one in command of the Death Star and thus the villain whose plans must be stopped in order to save the day.
  • Turn out to not be the Big Bad after all
    • Saren from Mass Effect seems to be the one behind the geth attacks and four times personally steps in to interfere with Shepard—other villains get two encounters at most.
  • The Big Bad
    • The Joker in The Dark Knight spends the entire movie making everyone dance to his tune.
    • Blackbeard in Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides is trying to control the Fountain of Youth and quite hands-on with his leadership.

If we can get this trope a better description, we can probably leech off a lot of the bad examples using The Big Bad as "the villain the hero faces at the end of the movie", such as The Abomination from The Incredible Hulk (an underling until he goes crazy in the final act, and the real Big Bad and The Hero have to team up to stop him).
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
34 SeptimusHeap3rd Feb 2013 04:13:43 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
The Heavy's description seems clear enough for me, so as long as you follow the "first sentence is critical" part.
35 Xtifr3rd Feb 2013 11:05:31 AM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
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The name's more than merely confusing—it's downright ambiguous, as seen when I listed the several meanings found in the dictionary earlier. The description doesn't seem too bad to me, but I never object to adding clarity.
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36 SeptimusHeap3rd Feb 2013 11:06:51 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Yeah, this name is awful. Gave the rename a [tup]
I agree that the name is really the only problem. The description could use a few tweaks here and there, but it's the name that's the issue.
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I'm cool renaming. It's a pretty bad title.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Looks like we're pretty set on renaming. I've set up an Alternative Titles crowner here, and I've added an EWISOTT suggestion for an alternate title (though I'm not voting it up because I think we can do better). Hollering to hook.

edited 4th Feb '13 9:54:50 PM by WaxingName

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Plot Driving Villain sounds a little too close to Villains Act, Heroes React.

I mean, I guess this trope is just very close to Villains Act, Heroes React in general, so, I dunno.

edited 5th Feb '13 12:31:58 AM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
41 SeptimusHeap5th Feb 2013 03:44:09 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
That the names are close reflects the fact the tropes are close as well.
42 AnotherDuck5th Feb 2013 05:45:55 AM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
How about something of a smaller change, like The Heavy Role?
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43 SeptimusHeap5th Feb 2013 05:58:26 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
That is very ambiguous, unless we want to explain the trope to non- villains.
44 AnotherDuck5th Feb 2013 06:14:19 AM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Sometimes I think rename threads should direct their attention to laconics instead.
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45 SeptimusHeap5th Feb 2013 06:23:07 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
[up][up]Are you suggesting the title be "Villain Who Does The Most Stuff"?
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Is there a point to this trope? Villain that Drives the Plot is all it seems to be, and that's really dumb.
I laugh in the face of suffering.
[up]Maybe we do need to more specifically define the difference between Big Bad and The Heavy. I honestly can't; is there anyone who can?
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[up]It's not so much that it overlaps with The Big Bad; it's a People Sit on Chairs.
I laugh in the face of suffering.
[up]I think you're thinking of this, which is the Omnipresent Trope.
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Single Proposition: The Heavy 2
1st May '13 3:44:05 PM
Vote up for yes, down for no.
At issue:

Total posts: 187
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