I think the description makes it clear that this is only for truly "instant" death (though it is too long), it's just that the examples are listing all the aversions.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
I would have to disagree on that. It starts out with this
Goes through a info dump that looks more like something from a Useful Notes page on how you can either die insantly or possibly endure for a couple minutes despite a lethal wound depending on a variety of X factors and statistics. It goes into detail about difficulties of hitting vital spots and how it is not always a instant kill.
Then it ends with this.
•Instant Death Bullet •Only a Flesh Wound •Incapacitation from which the victim may or may not recover •Severe impairment that is (at least temporarily) overcome with several gallons of Heroic Willpower
Some of these subscribe to this trope more than others; the instantly incapacitating shot that then leads to a lingering dying speech isn't really a violation, since a stomach wound is even less likely to be instantaneously incapacitating than an arterial or brain wound, and yet it almost always causes the victim to fall over immediately.
I am seeing quite a bit of info in the description that is contrary to instant death events.
Who watches the watchmen?
Question: Is this trope:
- 100% chance of instant death
- 100% chance of death, regardless of how long it takes
- A good chance of death
Tsundere pet.
I think that what the trope wants to be is that anyone who is fatally shot in fiction is far more likely to die instantly than would be plausible in Real Life; if the character is still moving around 30 seconds later, that's a sign the wound isn't fatal. The examples, however, are a mess; don't we have a trope for "still alive after taking a full magazine of bullets" that we could move the so-called aversions to?
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
I am looking right now for tropes that may already do what this trope does or we can send other examples to. That still leaves the mess that is the description.
edited 20th Apr '12 7:44:11 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?
A few things I notice, looking it over:
- Three quarters of the description can be moved out of the main description and onto the Analysis page without losing anything of importance.
- While this is a very common trope, it's hardly omnipresent—as the description itself states—so it shouldn't have aversions as examples in the first place. Maybe make that explicit on the page?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't know if we do have a trope for "bullets work the way they do in real life" — although that specific example would probably fit Made of Iron.
edited 20th Apr '12 8:32:39 PM by Dor
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Ok two closest tropes I can think of are Mortal Wound Reveal and One-Hit Kill. Some of the examples could go on mortal wound. One hit kill has the most in common with the trope as titled.
The write up is not even in line with the title to begin with, which is part of my concern. From start to finish it doesn't even explain how the trope is supposed to be used in fiction. It starts out with something that goes against instant death the trope name suggests. Goes through an info dump section that looks like it was shoe horned in and more or less says you don't always die immediately from fatal wound. It ends with something sounds a lot like the opening and then stating if something other than instant death happens it works for the trope. Read through the following.
likely ninjad.
Who watches the watchmen?
Disagree strongly with pretty much all of your last section. Adding the lingering deaths to this would reduce the trope to Death By Gunshot.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Outside of mooks Instant death gunshot is otherwise too rare. Once you remove the info blurb what you have left is both lingering and instant death. Somewhere between naming and writing the trope there was a disconnect.
Just got done going through all the listed examples. Played straight for non-mooks is pretty damn uncommon. Instead we have almost an entire page full of averted/subverted examples. The pattern here any time a named character is lethally shot they are not falling over instantly dead. They linger either for a few seconds to a few hours.
offhand I can only think of two other examples instant death with a story important character. The German Major in Enemy At The Gates and The German Ophem Shoots in Saving Private Ryan.
Oh and this already a trope about Death By Gunshot regardless if it is instant or not.
edited 20th Apr '12 9:52:21 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?
Cure Candy
Important Character Dies Instantly? Important Characters Instant Death? Important Characters Death Left No Time For Last Words? Out With A Whimper? (I don't think it needs to be about bullets IMO they just gotta be bam gone.)
How is the wick check on this anyway?
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
If it is just instant death in general we already have that covered under other tropes. While looking for tropes that share traits or maybe the same/similar I stumbled on the last time it was dragged in for repair in TRS. see here
Taken in for repair in 2010. Little to nothing was done until later in 2011.
The decision was to remove the extra info and make it an useful notes page. Looks like the bare bones for the useful notes was laid down but never finished. There was also questions about the inordinate number of aversions. Others made similar observations as I have made in this thread. YTTW for Useful notes
Raso: You and I were both in that thread. I was for removing the info blurb and making it a useful notes. It looks like the last time the discussion was locked because it got forgotten and became a stale convo.
Related To Page 1,000+ Wicks and shows up in 200+ articles this was for since Jan 1 2011. Problem is this trope was supposed to have at least the least the description cleaned up but it got forgotten. Then further conversation got stalled and it went stale.
edited 21st Apr '12 8:28:14 AM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?
Cure Candy
the old thread was not very long... I only posted once.
I do want to add that some games with Arbitrary Gun Power will give 1 hit kill ammo like Final Fantasy X 2's Gunner's gauntlet minigame and their one hit kill bullets best used against specific enemies with huge HP meters.
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Wouldn't that fall under one of the ammo, infinity +1, or other similar tropes then? Specific items or requipment that are instantly lethal.
Who watches the watchmen?
Cure Candy
It is an Abnormal Ammo
The game gives you
- Ammo: Each shot deals 1 HP of damage to target fiend."
- Dual Shot: Can shoot at two fiends at once. Deals 1 HP of damage as well.
- Death: Instakills one target enemy.
- Volley: Instakills all onscreen enemies.
But the fact that there are insta-kill bullets in games with Arbitrary Gun Power it is a big reason for rename in addition to the massive misuse as a Troper Pothole Tic (I can think of more than a few other games too.)
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
IIRC This is one of the articles from before YTTW and the non-info blurb parts really make it look like it was never fully finished. They started with an idea and sort of let it languish.
Who watches the watchmen?
I'd be okay with deleting all the aversions, and leaving only straight examples, and Playing with the Trope.
edited 21st Apr '12 9:42:45 AM by abk0100
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
That would effectively gut the page.
A quick count for cutting non-played straight examples or examples that belong on other trope pages like abnormal ammo, infinity +1, attack the weak spot and similar tropes. Your looking at roughly 8-10 maybe (12 being generous) examples left. You might squeeze out another 5 or so doing enough digging into the various examples individual works. Not very common. The original write up pre info dump suggests more then just instant death.
Any example that was instant death for mooks was cut. There is nothing special about a mook/red shirt going down in one hit. Plus that is part of Mook and Red shirt respectively.
Examples kept were for named characters.
edited 21st Apr '12 12:14:36 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Ok lets talk options.
Keep the name and clean out all the aversions. Also finish cleaning up the write up and then writing it to show how it is used in fiction along with what not to put on the page. Rough Count 10-15 Examples left. If we look around enough we can probably find a few more mostly from action/war/historically related works. This is the simplest one and we don't have worry about a rename. The write up should include how a gun is a nearly instant and brutal weapon of death
The problem is what makes dieing instantly via a bullet special? If it is just instant death we already have a trope for that. There will still be more aversions then played straight. It should have something to do with guns and being shot specifically. Ie what makes dieing instantly by a bullet meaningful rather then mundane occurence? Might work better as as sub-Trope of Insta Kill
Next Option
Rename and expand to be a more broad with death by gunshot. This makes the trope more broad and applicable to a larger variety of fictional situations. This is more in line with the original write up. The write up will still need further clean up and demonstration of trope usage in fiction. Most of examples are kept and we lose the problem with constantly seeing Averted pop up on the page. Specifically this would include the lingerng deaths and anything they might entail. The write up should include how a gun is a nearly instant and brutal weapon of death but can also leave a victim not quite dead.
This is a bit more work, we have to rename, this trope is more likely to cross over or share properties with other tropes already on the wiki. We would need to spend some additional time going through other possibly related tropes to see how much cross over this gets. This one may work better as a related or sub-trope as well.
For both choices we need to clean up the write up and demonstrate how the trope is used in fiction in general. We need to note what does and does not go on to the page. Including related tropes or what tropes they are sub-tropes of. Both examples should focus on named or important characters. Mooks and Red Shirts dying easily is covered under Mook and Red Shirt Respectively. Examples will need to be cleaned up in general. After it is done here in TRS we could possibly send it to Image Picking to possibly find a suitable image.
What are your guys thoughts and options?
Who watches the watchmen?
I see the Awesomeness.
I think the first option is the best to a degree. In essence, the Instant Death Bullet means that a main character doesn't get a last chance to be dramatic in their death or offer a Heroic Sacrifice. It's a gut punch in that we see a character we're supposed to know and feel for get cut down instantly with out any kind of personal drama resolution or anything else. It's essentially an aversion of a dramatic death by a main character.
Fight smart, not fair.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
I would say more then just a main character. Any character important to a story being denied a final dramatic moment is a pretty pointed gut punch.
Who watches the watchmen?
Thank you, Monty Oum.
One thing - I suppose it's not considered Instant Death Bullet if someone quickly falls down and dies from being shot more than once, right?
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
That is a good question. If they get blasted by a shotgun or automatic weapon how do you know which hit was lethal? Some, all one? We can assume at least one is lethal though.
Who watches the watchmen?
Cure Candy
This should not be limited to guns... swords, cars, burns all work just as well.
Hell I would put Aeris in this. Sword to the gut then dead, no last words, no nothing. She didn't even get to say anything before she died too.
edited 24th Apr '12 2:39:50 PM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
I think almost that we need an "instant kill when it isn't normal anything" supertrope, with Instant Kill Weapon and Instant Illness* subtropes.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Crown Description:
What would be the best way to fix the page?
The Problem
The name implies a one shot kill. But the explanation blurb seems to be written to for instant death wounds as well as the more lingering or less then instant death examples. This also applies to the examples. Reading through the examples there are alot of Subverted/averted examples on the page.
The current description is a bit cluttered and seems to only lead to more confusion. There is too much info crammed into it. The description mentions characters not just dying instantly and lists variations on how fatal gunshot wounds are handled. The various examples also demonstrate a wider range of fatal gun shot events in media.
Who watches the watchmen?