Not Tropeworthy: Start To Save

Well there is a ykttw glitch preventing some new ones from being made. See this thread.

I'm not really sure why restarting from the beginning (which was an hour ago) is different than restarting from hour X (which was an hour ago), though. I would think both would have the same implications and frustrations.

Especially if it is after a boss fight... Or worse Save -> boss ———> lots of cutscenes ——-> boss 2 -> oh died start over.

Or you gotta run and turn the system off.

Should I make a special efforts thread on this? Will most likely need help when YKTTW gets back up and running. (not now though it's work time.)

edited 12th Mar '12 2:00:20 PM by Raso

We already have Checkpoint Starvation for long periods of time between "Save Point N" and "Save Point N+1". I would not be averse to merging Start To Save into that trope.

Ah, that would work perfectly. Good idea!

What would be the point? Is there a problem with keeping the examples separate?

Because they seem to be Ridiculously Similar Tropes, and that's what we do with those?

I'm not positive that was a serious question. Was it?

edited 12th Mar '12 3:35:49 PM by ccoa

^^The problem with keeping the examples separate is that it means that any reader viewing one of these two pages might miss out on half of the examples. There are cases in which this is necessary (such as when a page becomes too long for the wiki software to handle), but this is not such a case.

Another save game trope:

Save From Item - You can save your game using an item in your inventory. Can be combined with other types.

Not sure if it's Too Rare To Trope, though. The only games I can remember that use it are Wild ARMs and my own game Shades.

YKTTW seems to be mostly fixed, shall we start the process?

edited 13th Mar '12 8:01:45 AM by ccoa

I agree that merging is a good idea: the tropes really overlap a lot.

Also, I know several other examples for Save From Item.

Agreeing with merging

The first Final Fantasy used tents, cabins, and houses as save items. And Resident Evil has the typewriter ribbons.

^ Thanks. :)

Crowner's up. Go to town.

EDIT: Snapshot today, because I don't have shima's memory:

Merge

8 (yeas:9 nays:1) 9.00 : 1

Cut

-2 (yeas:1 nays:3)

Do Nothing

-2 (yeas:2 nays:4)

edited 15th Mar '12 12:35:18 PM by ccoa

I started YKTT Ws for Save Game, Save Item (although that name is not working), and Quick Save, if anyone is interested in commenting.

Save-Game Limits was brought up in a couple of them, which appears to be a supertrope or "commonly found with" trope to many of them.

Calling in favour of merge.

Merged.

I didn't put these examples on the page, for these reasons. If you feel differently, please do speak up.

Unskipable cutscenes. Not sure if these count.

• Final Fantasy VI is one of those with a long unskippable cinematic at the beginning which serves a non gameplay essential purpose.

• Contact for the DS is another game with a lengthy Start To Save time- there's a lot of mysterious questions and plot setup before you can actually save any of it.
• Donkey Kong 64 has an unskippable cut scene that plays every time you start a new game. Worse yet, it's another example where it's possible to view it optionally beforehand. However, there is a "story skip" option which disables the intro in the options menu. Pity the poor player who misses that, though.
• While you can save at any point during gameplay in Metal Gear Solid, the infamously-long cutscenes are neither pausable nor can you save by any other means: some may take an hour or more- which means the actual Start To Save time of the games are short, but in terms of the many cutscenes, it's more from the start of the cutscene (or Codec sequence) to the end of it. Of course, this may be a way of culling the weaker players.
  • This was finally addressed in Metal Gear Solid 4, where pressing the PS button will pause any cutscene or CODEC call. Some of the longer series of cutscenes allow you to save at breaks between cutscenes. But you still have to wait 15+ minutes between these breaks.
  • In the original Metal Gear Solid, Snake has to get onto the Heliport before he's introduced to Mei Ling, a character who takes care of saving, giving the psychological effect of a gameplay Cold Opening. While Snake can save right from the start of Metal Gear Solid 2, Raiden is only able to save after accessing the Node in front of the Big Shell's cargo elevator and being introduced to Rose.
    • This doesn't however affect gameplay, as the games always saves at the start of each area and in both of these cases, you can save as soon as you pass the first screen, making a save redundant.
• Star Ocean: The Second Story is extremely bad about this. The opening sequences where you're in the village going over the plot (info dumpage) are unskippable, even if you've waded through it several times already. It kind of takes the fun out of finding out what the multiple endings are. You have to save immediately after to make sure you don't mess up your relationship values. But that's a long intro.
• The original Valkyrie Profile had a long set of cutscenes wherein you get your first two Einherjar before it ever let you save. This was tolerable when it was a console game, but a pain when it was ported to the Play Station Portable, since a handheld is generally for more pick-up-and-play style gaming.
  • It wasn't too bad, considering the PSP's ability to "sleep" at any time, sucking up virtually no battery life, and turn the system back on to resume right where you left off.
• Mass Effect 2 starts with an long Unskippable Cutscene. Then you have to go to Joker. The next cutscene leads to the Character Creation. After the next cutscene you're allowed to save.
  • Though considering this intro segment could just have easily been placed at the end of the first game as a Downer Ending/cliffhanger for two years, it's more than welcome in its current location.

Not either trope:

• Final Fantasy: the player can save just as soon as character creation is over. This reflects a general trend in lengthening Start To Save times. Compare the jump-in-headfirst attitude of old-school RPGs to the lengthy intros of today.

• As a rule, MMORPGs in general save your progress automatically when you log off; although in the case of World Of Warcraft, your character lingers a few seconds in the game world, so disconnecting in the middle of a battle means that you can log back on to find yourself...dead.
  • A number of MMOs have the player character logged on for a short while after disconnecting, usually allowing enough time for active enemies to kill the character. This is intended to prevent any exploits that involve logging out or physically cutting the connection repeatedly but it can be a serious bother to honest players with bad connections.

It's a Hopeless Boss Fight that takes all of 5 minutes:

• Final Fantasy III requires a boss battle prior to being able to save (and it's not a Foregone Victory either)

Not sure about the accuracy:

• Final Fantasy VII: the first save point is immediately before the first boss.

No context:

• The Legend Of Zelda A Link To The Past: The first opportunity to save comes after acquiring the sword.

• Sword Of Mana

Aversion. Bleh.

• Final Fantasy Tactics mercifully averts the general trend by giving the player the option to save before the first "real" battle, allowing them to skip the lengthy introduction should they fail.

• In all the Ace Attorney games, you can save at almost any time. Only during cutscenes like the beginning videos in Apollo Justice or on some multiple-choice options can you NOT save. Even within each case, the Start To Save time is exceedingly short.
  • Sure, the game forces you to quit to the title every time you save mid-play, but two clicks and five seconds later you're back exactly where you left off.
• In the Pokemon games, you can save immediately after the opening (short) cinematic and giving yourself a name.
  • In the games Pokemon Heartgold And Soulsilver, you must wait until after you talk to your mom for the first time; she literally gives you the option to save.
• The original Jak And Daxter provided an interesting aversion: The game was essentially saved as soon as they player began the game (with all successive saves being updated into that same slot), and afterwards the player was treated to an unskippable intro cutscene. Players could "cheat", however, by resetting the console after the saving was done: Loading the savegame would skip the cutscene and throw the player straight to the start of the training level.
• In Cave Story, after a short opening cutscene, You Wake Up in a Room which contains the first save point and a door to the Noob Cave.
• You can save in La-Mulana once you have enough coins (10) to purchase the Game Master ROM. This is actually quite easy (there is a 1 time stash of 10 coins right next to the shop) unless you want to save up for some vitally important item that has to be bought, like the Hand Scanner.
• In Super Mario Bros. 3, you can save as soon as you get to the first world. (aka immediately)
  • That applies only to rereleases. In the original, there is no save function.

Seems to be just complaining. Is an entire day really that long in game time?

• Harvest Moon: Back to Nature is overall a very fun game, but it shows extremely poor decisions in several spots (stuff that might be good for a first-time player, but is horribly irritating for someone familiar with the game). For example, you have to sit through an multi-page explanation of the usefulness of seeds every single time you try to buy seeds (and similar explanations for every other item in the store, making filling your backpack with flour a chore). This is never more obvious than when you're starting up a new game for an impatient nephew, and have to sit through a giant exposition dump (that you can't even walk away from, since you have to press buttons to make the text continue) and then play an entire day before you get to the save feature (since you save each night when you go to sleep). Heaven help you if you make some irritating mistake (such as forgetting to buy seeds) on the first day....

Final Fantasy III is a bad entry. Kill it.

Valkyrie Profile involves a 30+ minute cutscene, but I've really forgotten where the save points were.

Star Ocean The Second Story is inaccurate. Those cutscenes aren't quite as long, and the longest ones happen only with the male protagonist.

Do unskipable cutscenes count as this trope? I held them back because I wasn't sure.

If you mean as save points being scarce, then no.

But I do maintain that the Cut Scene page should split between unskippable and skippable.

edited 19th Mar '12 9:44:55 AM by DragonQuestZ

I'm going to put the no context examples on the discussion page, since the rest don't appear to be this trope.

I'll move the save game stuff to a special efforts thread.