Needs Help: Lightning Bruiser

Over at the Competitive Balance TRS, we were thinking up ways to clean up Competitive Balance, and Lightning Bruiser came up again.

What we need to do now is to define exactly what is a Lightning Bruiser. I made sure to make YKTTWs earlier in order to take out the part that requires a "subversion". I also made a YKTTW for Close Quarters Combatant to define a way that a Lightning Bruiser can potentially be balanced.

*bump* Over at the other TRS thread for Competitive Balance, I decided that we need to figure out Lightning Bruiser's position in relation to the rest of Necessary Drawback.

What are we going to do with it? I know some may argue that Lightning Bruiser inherently is a part of Necessary Drawback already, but in reality, the term doesn't imply that at all, and the idea that Lightning Bruiser has a Necessary Drawback is a rather arbitrary idea, since many of the other examples on that page have absolutely no Necessary Drawback.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. First we need to figure out how to organize the character archetype tropes, specifically if we're going to keep the "holy triangle" or not and if so, how we're going to change it if we are, and what happens to the tropes that depend on its existence (like Mighty Glacier and Lightning Bruiser). In addition to creating some missing archetypes. Repairing Lightning Bruiser would actually be at the bottom of the priority list.

What we really need now is a Necessary Drawback TRS thread.

edited 13th Nov '12 2:30:55 PM by shiro_okami

I think the problem with Lightning Bruiser is that it's so indecisive— the Purposefully Overpowered, the "good but no range," and multiple seperate variants of Fragile Speedster, Mighty Glacier, and Glass Cannon all make appearances on the page. The description is vague enough that they can all be included, and even though the examples are soft split, they don't account for all the subtypes. It's rather confusing to say the least.

We already agreed that the triangle isn't necessary for the archetypes. I'm just waiting for some to respond to the sandbox I made of my tweaking to Competitive Balance, but please respond to that on the TRS Competitive Balance thread.

For the "good but no range", I've got a proposal called Close Quarters Combatant. Maybe we need a "Master Of All Stats" for distinction from the main Lightning Bruiser.

Lightning Bruiser is problematic because its examples are so messy. Why is there a distinction between machines and non-machines? Why are there so many examples that are just "Fast and strong"? Why is the examples section soft-split in the first place?

We need to make a decision one way or another: do we want this trope to be about the archetype which subverts Mighty Glacier by having physical strength and bulk without having to sacrifice speed? Do we want to repurpose it to be about the "upgraded" version of Jack of All Stats who is above average in everything? If the latter, do we want to limit it to either a Purposefully Overpowered version or a version with some other drawback—or do we want it to encompass both, with potential for a subtrope split?

I think the best solution is whichever one of those best fits its current usage, which would call for a Wick Check to survey its current state. The examples, of course, are going to need cleanup no matter what we do, and there would likely be overlap between the options.

edited 14th Nov '12 12:09:27 AM by troacctid

Earlier in the thread, I proposed that we hard split these sections into their own tropes so that we can take away the "subversion" angle away from the trope, since it wasn't really adding anything. I think that we should just make this about when they're explicitly stated to be stronger, faster, and more durable. As for the splits, I proposed the following YKTTWs:

• Faster Than They Look: Split off the "Fast-moving Big Bruisers"
• Stronger Than They Look: Split off the "Hard-hitting Speedsters"
• Close Quarters Combatant: A trope for the "good but lacks range". Will also go under Necessary Drawback.

Has Muscles Are Meaningless been mentioned yet? It seems at least related to Stronger Than He Looks.

Wait a minute, you're kind of contradicting yourself there. Earlier you mentioned that the "holy triangle" wasn't necessary, but defining the Lightning Bruiser that way would still be keeping it. So are we getting rid of it or not? If not, I agree with the above statement, but if so, I think both Lightning Bruiser and Mighty Glacier need to be redefined. If we really got rid of the triangle, I think the best option would be to merge Lightning Bruiser and Mighty Glacier into a single broad trope about having both high offense and defense, regardless of what form that defense takes (whether toughness or speed/evasion).

Being stronger, faster, and more durable is inherently part of being a Lightning Bruiser; it has nothing to do with the triangle. If we remove any of those qualities, it will just be an entirely different archetype.

Just so everyone knows, I've launched Close-Range Combatant; which should cover the part about some Lightning Bruisers only being able to fight at close range.

WHAT? It has everything to do with the triangle, in fact, Lightning Bruiser practically is the triangle, considering the description of the trope you just gave is basically the same definition as the triangle. Getting rid of the triangle is absolutely impossible if the trope is not completely redefined or not deleted.

edited 15th Nov '12 2:38:29 PM by shiro_okami

Just because Lightning Bruiser happens cover the three parts of the holy triangle doesn't mean it's necessary.

The main reason that Lightning Bruiser can't fit well with the holy triangle is that the triangle by itself doesn't take into account other factors, whether it be other stats like range, accuracy, and cost, or additional abilities like the ability to fly or ability to heal.

It's similar to the reason we have to the other archetypes not perfectly fitting with the triangle. Either it takes into account too many factors or not enough factors.

edited 15th Nov '12 3:37:18 PM by WaxingName

Man, I know what you are saying but the name Lightning Bruiser to refer to someone who is just better at everything (combat related) than everyone else is so counter intuative.

But then these competative balance tropes are such a friggin wreck I am not sure I even want to get involved.

The Competitive Balance thing has its own thread, so you can go there instead.

Also, do we need a YKTTW for a Master Of All Stats or Master of All? That would cover when a character is better at everything, but I'm not sure that's tropeworthy myself?

But it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to have the triangular character archetypes (Lightning Bruiser and Mighty Glacier) adhere to the triangle but no longer use it to organize the dual archetypes (Glass Cannon, Stone Wall, & Fragile Speedster). If we use it, we should use it for all five tropes. If we remove it, we should remove it entirely from all five tropes.

You are contradicting yourself again. Earlier you said that Lightning Bruiser is only about "being stronger, faster, and more durable", which would mean that it is a perfect fit for the triangle. Now you're saying that takes other factors into account. So is it about "being stronger, faster, and more durable"; or is it about other factors too? Which is it?

I'll make myself clearer. Lightning Bruiser is all messed up because of its vague definition of strong, fast and durable. The main problem with it, which I put in the OP of this thread a long time ago, is that strong, fast, and durable describes nearly every character who can fight in nearly every work.

I want the trope definition to specifically be about being explicitly stated to be more strong, more fast, and more durable so that it won't be too broad like it is now. I also want to hard split the subversion part of the description because it's not adding anything to the trope.

And just because Lightning Bruiser covers the triangle doesn't mean that you have to think of it in terms of the triangle. The reason I described the additional factors is that additional factors can either give the Lightning Bruiser a Necessary Drawback or make the Lightning Bruiser a Game-Breaker depending on whether they are decreased or increased stats in other areas. This is why this specific archetype is in a strange position compared to the others. Very few works only think in terms of the triangle because if they do, the Lightning Bruiser is an automatic Game-Breaker because there are no other factors to take into consideration.

edited 16th Nov '12 9:15:38 AM by WaxingName

But are you actually adding in those additional factors to the trope so it isn't just about more strength/speed/toughness anymore? If we're purging the triangle, it would make more sense to do so. It's pointless to confine Lightning Bruiser to strength/speed/toughness if we're not using the triangle anymore.

No, but the triangle will still technically exist regardless. Or are you saying that you don't want to get rid of the triangle, you just want to ignore it?

edited 16th Nov '12 3:52:54 PM by shiro_okami

Yes. I would like to ignore the triangle. It will stay as an image for Competitive Balance, but that's as far as I would like to go with it.

And Lightning Bruiser is not about the additional factors. This is actually the problem as to why Lightning Bruiser can't fit into Necessary Drawback in its current state because additional factors are the only way it can even fit into Necessary Drawback.

OK, I understand what your saying now, although I still disagree with it.

Then cut it. Cut it, cut it, cut it. This is just another reason why I think getting rid of the Mighty Glacier and Lightning Bruiser tropes and making a new trope to replace them is the best option. This would also get rid of the triangle in the process so we don't have to think about it or in terms of it anymore.

Merging Lightning Bruiser and Mighty Glacier is a too-drastic measure. For one, the Mighty Glacier archetype is a very well-established archetype, slow speed and all.

Maybe we could compromise and just make a "Bruiser" supertrope to cover high attack and defense, but that would uncomfortably conflict with The Big Guy.

Maybe Lightning Bruiser itself could be cut because it's way too broad. It's just that there's an idea here that is good; just used poorly.

Being a somewhat drastic measure doesn't mean that it's not a good idea. Basically my idea would be to get rid of the "high offense" portion of Mighty Glacier, that way it would be just about "high toughness but low evasion/speed". That way, it would also provide a better counterpart for Fragile Speedster (high evasion/speed but low toughness).

That is actually the same as my idea, except that it would not conflict with The Big Guy, because as pointed out in the Competitive Balance TRS, defense covers both toughness and evasion. Besides, Mighty Glacier as it exists currently actually does conflict with The Big Guy, but that doesn't seem to cause any problems.

The effect would actually be more like splitting Mighty Glacier into two tropes, subtracting "high offense" from one (making it arbitrary/variable instead) and adding in "general defense" (as opposed to "toughness only") for the other. (Note that in both cases, doing this would actually add more examples, instead of deleting existing ones.) Of course, we don't necessarily have do it using that particular measure.

edited 18th Nov '12 8:12:58 AM by shiro_okami

I see where you're getting at. Your proposal would make things simpler by making Mighty Glacier a true opposite to Fragile Speedster. I think your course of action is good.

Now, are you saying that we should just zap Lightning Bruiser? I need to be more clear on this. Once I'm clear, I think I'll holler for a mod so that action can be taken.

NOW WE'RE TALKING!

I think we can zap it for good, but I'm only referring to the actual trope itself. I think we could probably salvage most of the examples from it to go in its replacement. I think it would be better to just cut and paste them into a new trope page, since the name "Lightning Bruiser" would no longer fit and because of the awkward separation of examples into different categories, and a new description would have to be written up. I think the only thing left to figure out is what to name the new trope.

Other things that need to be considered is repairing Glass Cannon, since currently both its description and examples overlap with Fragile Speedster; the overlapping examples would instead likely need to be moved to the new trope replacing Lightning Bruiser. And Stone Wall needs some examples that are good at evasion and a rename that refers more to general defense instead of toughness only. Of course, we can cross those bridges when we come to them.

edited 18th Nov '12 8:45:10 PM by shiro_okami

Just name it "Bruiser". Short, sweet, and to the point. Just set up a YKTTW about it, and once it gets up, we can zap this poorly-used trope. I'm still a bit worried about overlap with The Big Guy, though.

Well, it may have taken us a while to agree on something, but at least we got there.

edited 18th Nov '12 8:44:24 PM by WaxingName