Sources needed? (has to do with RonTheDeathEater): Draco In Leather Pants

Added crowner.

So here's sort of my line of reasoning here. We have a thing about characters who are interpreted as heroes in fanon despite being evil in canon. And the question is, should we be listing the characters as examples from the original canon work, or as examples from the individual fanon works that treat them that way?

1. Use the original canon:
   • This is an Audience Reaction, not a trope.
   • It promotes Justifying Edits as people want to chat about it instead of just listing examples.
   • It promotes adding "general examples"—examples that say "This happens all the time" instead of giving specific details of where it actually happens.
   • It discourages adding specific examples from fanfics because people will see "This happens all the time in fanfics about X" and assume, "Oh, that already covers my example, I don't need to list it."
   • Overall, the trope suffers. A legitimate trope is buried by a nattery YMMV mess.
2. Use the specific fanon works:
   • This gives us an objective Fanfic Trope, not an Audience Reaction.
   • It kills Justifying Edits by making the examples list about specific examples from specific works—not debatable.
   • The examples can flourish as specific instances are listed.

edited 1st Apr '12 6:46:36 PM by troacctid

I believe that Audience Reaction examples, funneled elsewhere if need be, CAN be purged of Justifying Edits. And there are other YMMV tropes, i. e. Hype Backlash wherever listed under other YMMV subsections of works, that are non-sourced. They are a different story from fanfics, which ARE traceable to a single source.

edited 1st Apr '12 11:59:16 PM by azul120

What about the examples themselves? Like, what constitutes as Draco in Leather Pants?

Take, for example, Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez, the 6th Espada. He stabs through Rukia's gut; beats Ichigo to a pulp; cared very little about his Fraccion dying; chokes Orihime for speaking out against him; grabs Rukia's face and nearly shoots her with a point-blank Cero; and only wanted to revive Ichigo just to kill him again. Despite all this, part of the fanbase views him as an Anti-Hero that's already redeemed and ready to join the good guys. Does that count?

The problem is that once you list the character without listing specific fandom instances of the trope occurring, it closes the door to any future examples of actual fics where it happens, because people read it and think "It's already listed, so I shouldn't list it again." Fan work examples just won't get listed. We saw this exact problem with Ron the Death Eater—there were a bajillion examples claiming it happened all the time, but nobody wanted to list the individual instance of it happening. Even for fanfics that had wiki pages.

This is probably less of a problem with Draco in Leather Pants as it is with Ron the Death Eater, because Ron the Death Eater is about shoehorning a heroic character into a villainous role, whereas Draco in Leather Pants is about adoration and...like, just liking him when you're supposed to hate him, which is more passive.

If you look at the examples that were removed from Ron the Death Eater, they're all claiming "This happens in fanfics." Well then list the fanfics. We trope fanfics here just like any other work of fiction. But the Draco in Leather Pants examples look pretty different. I don't think we need to apply the same rules to both tropes.

edited 8th Apr '12 7:01:41 PM by troacctid

Not all of them. You overgeneralize. There were also cases where the inverse of the DILP examples happen outside of fanfics: fandom mistaking characters as being more evil/selfish than they really are, if they are to begin with, and subjecting them to irrational hatred as a result. (Example: Yugi and his friends, especially Joey and Tea/Anzu tend to get a bad rap from anyone who white knights Kaiba and views him as a Misunderstood Loner with a Heart of Gold who they don't understand, even though he does most of the blowing off in the first place.)

Besides, fan work examples can always be separated from everything else if they are to be kept to their pages.

BTW Nocturna, why the additional option? It's almost the exact same thing, only without the example transfer suggestion.

edited 22nd Apr '12 9:32:06 PM by azul120

The vast majority of Ron the Death Eater examples before I cleaned it up were making claims about fanfics, not about fandom reactions.

Because I personally don't think the examples need to be shifted (bad examples are bad examples), and there are quite possibly others out there who feel the same way. Also, what Discar said—not all the examples that would need to get culled would even belong on Misaimed Fandom.

edited 22nd Apr '12 11:36:24 PM by Nocturna

@troacctid: Pretty sure that at least a few of those "in fanfics" included those words as an aside. Besides, it's a common enough phenomenon to be covered here, and fanfics are just used as an extension of those views, rather than an excuse to ship their favorite characters.
@Nocturna: With all due respect, that's just an opinion. From personal experience, I've seen tons of less than heroic characters get undeservedly squeed or have their actions too easily excused, while more decent characters are misconstrued as less heroic than they actually are. (And the rare Base Breaker examples where BOTH apply to the same character.)

edited 23rd Apr '12 12:06:58 AM by azul120

Isn't that also just your opinion? Can you objectively say someone's actions are "too easily" excused?

These are already YMMV tropes based on audience reactions.

So, in many cases, yes. Some fans aren't really bothered by their favorite characters' less moral acts.

Calling crowner.

So what is the actual consensus here? The DILP subpages are still getting new edits under the existing overall fanbase definition.

I think it means that there would be examples only if they are citing the work they appear in. Confirmation, please?

Consensus is to restrict Draco in Leather Pants to In-Universe Derivative Work examples only.

I thought the consensus on the crowner was for it to become fan fic only.

What I meant was that people are still editing under the existing definition of the trope.

Anyways, if that is to happen, I believe all fandom reaction examples should be moved to either Misaimed Fandom or Alternate Character Interpretation, if not a brand new trope.

Disregard, was thinking of something else.

edited 13th May '12 2:48:49 AM by SeptimusHeap

Wrong thread, perhaps?

How do you propose I bring the issue to other people still editing the subpages under the current definition? PM, perhaps?

If you go through and remove the examples that don't fit anymore, that should help.

The thing is that it was decided via a quite possibly narrow committee. I'm not sure if everyone knew the issue here due to the split nature of the page.

Anyways, there's also the matter of where to move the cut material. Existing trope, or new one established via YKTTW?

Cut material goes to Alternative Character Interpretation.

Could a Misaimed Character Fandom (if not a less-snowcloney title) redirect be added for added reference?

On second thought, if there's a trope the examples should be moved to, it should be Misaimed Fandom instead of Alternate Character Interpretation, since the latter is intentional and fanwork related.

So...I can understand the need to limit examples to fanfic only, since that is where you can objectively prove the phenomenon is happening. And it makes sense that anything which isn't in a fanfic but is just a fandom Audience Reaction to characters in their favorite books/TV shows/etc. is a matter of Misaimed Fandom or Alternate Character Interpretation. What confuses and concerns me is it sounds like you're saying that such fandom examples, to be added to Misaimed Fandom or Alternate Character Interpretation, need to be sourced as much as the fanfic-only examples. And that sounds like far too much work...we're supposed to search for pages online which document, for example, the love that Light Yagami or Sephiroth get? We have to find fanfics of whatever fandom we're adding examples to in order to prove the fandom is viewing characters this way, or websites where polls are held or other evidence given to prove these interpretations exist?

If I'm misunderstanding this, please correct me, but if I'm not, it sounds rather unfair to me, seeing as other Audience Reaction tropes or YMMV tropes don't require proof of their existence—or are they all going to require it now? Not to mention requiring sources is starting to sound like a certain other online wiki. Basically, if you force everyone to find sources for everything which is debatable or YMMV, people won't bother to list it any more since otherwise it'll just get deleted for being unsourced. That may be what you want, since it will cut out all the Natter and justifying edits, but the problem is all the legitimate examples will also be cut out, because people won't want to do the work for something that was just supposed to be fun.

Just my two cents.

edited 9th Aug '12 8:30:22 PM by Ingonyama

"Unfair" is a weak argument. And I've never heard of citations for other Audience Reactions, except Unfortunate Implications.