Do we really want to be heroes?

It's no secret that we like fiction in part becuase we would like to be like the protagonist we admire. Tha's why fictional heroes like superman or harry potter are very popular. Speaking of the later he fulfills the dream of being a wizard.

Usually the protagonist it's a hero or a least considered a good guy. But do we really want to be the heroes in fiction or we just want the powers and the perks of being special?.

Even in games people will hardly ever choose to be a villain or part of an evil faction and with a good reason Villains are traditionally portrayed as ugly, patetic and pityful losers.

We don't like to be in the wrong of course hence the reason the default protagonist is always a hero.To be sure we wouldn't have an excuce to fight someone unless he desevrves it by being a villain. Even the first writters realized how bad things could go if a person like superman wasn't anything but a good person: Beware the Superman. Hence the reason antiheroes were almost non existant on comics.

However the later appereance of AntiHeros showed that some people more than being "right" enjoyed the power of being a superperson and being "cool".

To point a popular Example Death Note. Many people rooted for the Villain Protagonist light yagami. He has everything a hero traditionally has: inteligence, beauty and a great power (the power over life and death).More importantly people actually tried to use death notes on Real Life as the other wiki mentions [1].Regardless of the ethical implications, it's made plainly obvious that using a death note wouldn't be the route of action a traditional hero would follow.

Another popular example is the joker as portrayed by Heath Ledger.While it's nothing new that a villain gets admirations, is worth nothing that the hero didn't get as much attention.

Of course not all powerful characters are heroes or villains as shows like Bewitched have shown.

The fall of idealism as shown in my opinion a simple fact that in the mind of most people With Great Power Comes Great Perks instead of great responsability.

A lot of People enjoy shows more for the power than for the ideals of the heroes, that traditionally have been an example to follow.

Take for example Bella swann from Twilight. Regardless of your opinion on the work itself or the character. You must admitt that while she is a protagonist, Bella swann is anything but a hero. She has what many teens want to have (beauty, money cool boyfriend, immortality etc), but saving the world is to be sure the least of her concerns. Characters like her rise the question on what we really want on fiction.

TL:DR My question is: If we removed the tradition/social pressure of main character = good guy. Would we still want to be heroes? or simply special and awesome people.

edited 26th Jan '12 9:55:26 PM by FallenLegend

Make your hearth shine through the darkest night; let it transform hate into kindness, evil into justice, and loneliness into love.

I hope this bump isn't against the rules.

I think the thread got accepted as suitable for conversation when it was on page

Make your hearth shine through the darkest night; let it transform hate into kindness, evil into justice, and loneliness into love.

I think some people do want to be heroes (as in, they want to be a really cool person or a really good person or both). I know I went through a phase of wanting to be a hero when I was younger. I knew other people who did, too. (We grew out of it, but it could get unhealthy if you don't.)

I think it was because the movies made it look fun and if you're a hero, you always have a purpose and a place in the world. Like, heroes are obviously earning their keep and people like to feel useful.

Or, some people, like you said, are just interested in the perks and they just like the power.

But when you really think about it, being a hero is not only very hard work, but it means you have to take responsibility and blame for things (sometimes things that you couldn't control). If a hero makes a mistake, they have to live with the fact that their mistake could get people killed. They can't possibly save everyone, and there's nothing they can do about it, but it would still hurt.

But since heroes aren't real, hopefully we don't really have to worry about this.

(Well, maybe if you're a firefighter or a doctor or a police officer, or something like that you might have to worry about a mistake killing someone.)

edited 5th Mar '12 7:12:26 PM by BlackElephant

I'm an elephant. Rurr.

We can be heroes, just for one day.

But no, I'd rather not be a hero. I don't like the attention.

Somehow you know that the time is right.

I think people want wish-fulfillment, not heroics. Heroes get a lot of adulation (and pussy), so it's a natural fit.

Also, it's just harder to fantasize yourself as a villain. This is true even of assholes like me, because one likes to imagine oneself as being more special and pure than one is.

I'm a skeptical squirrel

I don't want to be a "hero," but I do want my life to have a positive impact on others.

to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee

It depends how you define hero.

Just helping others because you want to is being a hero alone. I find that just enough.

Of course, it's the same with Police, etc. They're heroes too.

It's true some people may do it for reasons other than doing the right thing. But it just depends what they want, really. Helping others either way is fine. If they do it for attention, sure. No problem. If they do it and use some way to mask themselves to avoid attention. That's fine too. If they don't even get attention for it, no biggie.

Just as long as it works for the individual person and people are helped, it's all good.

Quest 64 thread

The idea of doing something that matters is certainly appealing. The work that goes into it could be a problem though. Lazy people don't make very good heroes.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

A good portion of why fiction works at all rests upon the fact that the reader wants justice to be done. And heroes just so happen to do justice. (The fact that villain protagonists are always completely unlike the "villains" of real life also ties into that. Light Yagami is just doing justice in an awfully misguided way. He'd have way fewer fans if he decided to use the Death Note to kill random people in the street and take their wallets or something.)

I think the primary fall of the Ideal Hero has more to do with repetitiveness. People get bored with perfect characters overcoming obstacles every week. And people are also fairly aware that life isn't Black-and-White Morality, so pure heroes are boring from a character perspective.

Fight smart, not fair.

Yes. Yes we do.

The portrayal of the typical "Ideal Hero" is, admittedly, pretty boring; but it is a pretty recent development, and it is not generally found in any well-developed work. Even Perceval, perhaps the shiningest of the Knights In Shining Armor of the Arthurian Cycle, is not like that. Lancelot or Pellinore or Gawain or King Arthur are most definitely not like that.

Villains can be fascinating and interesting, I am not disputing this. But so can heroes; and on the other hand, not all villains are so. For any Joker there are many, many Dick Dastardly.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

At the thread question : I don't think we all mostly want to be heroes compared to our supressed desire to be as powerful as fiction.

Let's face it. With greater power comes not responsibilities first, but accessibilities instead. First we'd be commiting Mundane Utility and then let the sliding scales of morality decide our next course of actions. But it's neither an inherently heroic or villainistic process : it's just a bumped up development for us

With our wisdom and common sense, I'm sure most of us wouldn't seek gratification through massive acknowledgement which heroes in stories require. In a world where population is an issue in itself, it's more likely than not that we all want to be lonely but powerful

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...

I'm reminded of this:

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.

I think you establish a false dichotomy, FL. IMO it's obvious that people do enjoy power and power fantasies - but that doesn't mean they don't also enjoy dreaming of being the good guy, doing right. Those are two things of their own, if often connected in stories. And just because Anti-Hero stories do exist, doesn't mean most of us wouldn't have the wish to be good and do right - it's just some variety. Yes, such stories do satisfy power fantasies, but that doesn't mean classical hero stories aren't also read for "goodness fantasies", too.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Heroes aren't afraid. That's what I've found people think. Heroes are, as previously stated, idealised versions of ourselves. A Hero doesn't walk out when her parents are fighting, nor lose that job promotion because he completely forgot to set his alarm. In many ways, Heroes are EXACTLY what we want to be; better.

Low self-esteem is a very common problem. I'm not saying that everyone who wants to be a Hero is a self-hating wretch, but quite a few people will fail at something and think "IF only I'd done this" or "IF only I'd worked harder". This is regardless of whether they're Superman or your average primary school child. In most stories, there is a happy ending - no, Frodo does not trip and fall on the steps to Cirith Ungol, dying and letting Gollum run away with the ring. No, Maximus doesn't die of exhaustion and blood loss in the final fight of Gladiator until the end.

In real life, people fall at the last hurdle, we fuck up our last chance with people we love, and do things that noone could ever forgive. Heroes don't. Heroes, at the very least, tend to succeed in their main task, and more often that not get a happy ending. It's why I don't go around moaning about all these films with terrible stories; people want a simple tale about a Hero succeeding.

Yes, we want to be Heroes. Goddamnit, I want to be a Hero. But the truth is that real heroes have very real fears, very real flaws, and very real failures. But they don't let the little doubts in their head stop them. This is why intensely flawed protagonists always work better for me; I can't really identify with a master swordsman, though it is cool. I can, however, identify with someone who has royally fucked up a relationship, because I know what that feels like, and can empathise.

Unfortunately, I have no idea what it feels like to ride off into the sunset with a beautiful woman. Not until Kate returns my letters, atleast.

It's your God, they're your rules, you go to hell." - Mark Twain

I've been first-responder at a number of mishaps and accidents. Was I a hero? To that lady who spun out on the freeway and trashed her car, I was. Really, all I did was react. I did not rise to the occasion, nor have I done so in other instances. I fell upon my training. Crap hits the fan, and I react - is anyone hurt? What happened? Who's in charge of the scene? Has anyone called 911 yet? If no one has done these things, then I do it.

This all becomes instinct once you're trained in it enough and done it in the real world enough.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

@ Minister:

Yeah, but he doesn't exactly save the day either. he tried to claim the ring for himself, then Gollum stole the ring before falling into the lava. In a sense, Frodo did trip and fall. Fictional heroes aren't exactly flawless, and some do have to go through the same problems everyday people in real life do.

Anyway, even if doing what's right might not be all that glamorous in real life, I don't think it detracts too much from the appeal of simply doing what's right. Maybe that's just me.

edited 6th Mar '12 3:55:34 PM by ThatHuman

something

I kinda do. I'd be more batman than Iron Man though. I wouldn't really want everyone to know who I was.

I have multiple plans for how to keep the paparizi away if I got famous already. I really don't want that kind of spot light. *

edited 6th Mar '12 3:57:15 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack

There are three main possibilities to keep in mind when discussing antiheroes.

One is that while clear-cut heroes are fun and easy to watch, grayer ones make you think. In this thinking, you kind of have to put yourself into their head for a second, and as a result it becomes easier to relate to them. They're flawed enough to not be impossible. At the same time, their position on the fence gives you something meaningful to root for — that they'll get better, and that by extension you can get better too — whereas a solidly "good" character typically has little doubt that they'll keep being good.

The second thing is that most of those that appear today are very specific to a time period where anything worthwhile is drowned in red tape, technicalities, and bureaucracy. While Rorschach, Light, and any number of other vigilante characters have horrifying methods and motives, and their mental states are hideously unstable at best, the point remains that to some degree they're cutting through the tremendous, crushing bullshit we build for ourselves to get things done, and there's something twistedly romantic about that. Hell, in Light's case manipulating the public's casus belli was a huge plot point — one that quickly goes from "questionable but appreciable results" to "oh dear holy God what the fuck".

And third, schadenfreude. Sometimes it's just fun to watch people in the safety of fiction be complete unrepentant assholes to each other in elaborate ways.

edited 6th Mar '12 4:20:24 PM by Pykrete

With anti-heroes really it's sometimes just that young audiences are drawn to the darker and edgier characters. There's nothing that inherently makes an anti-hero more deep or thoughtful than a more idealistic character.

And then there's just really pathetic and pitiable characters like Rorschach.

to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee

Rorshach is a great character, but it's true that hard-boiled characters are good at one thing: Darwinisim. They survive, no matter how apocalyptic things get. Cracked had an article about how we're all egotists for fantasizing that we could actually last ten seconds in a Mad Max environment.

If that's true, and kids today want to be like Wolverine and slice everybody in sight, that's a lil sad. Because that kind of daydream rests on fear.

I'm a skeptical squirrel

Rorschach is a "great" character in that he's interesting, but he was also a really pathetic scumbag for almost the entire story.

to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee

@Someone

No, but neither does he fall flat on his arse five miles from the finish line. He gets to within five feet, then gets lucky. How often do you think that happens, day to day? He resisted the ring from The Shire to Mordor. LITERALLY the complete opposite side of the world.

There is a reason he bows to noone.

It's your God, they're your rules, you go to hell." - Mark Twain

Well, it was only a few hundred miles, really.

On topic: Damned right I want to be a hero! Not for wealth or fame, because I honestly couldn't give a rat's arse about those, but for the opportunity to make the world a better place and be able to look at it and think 'I did that'.

I want to be the guy who always does the right thing and who always wins and is never afraid and never gets so tired with everything that he wishes the whole world would just explode a la Alderaan.

I'm not that guy. Sometimes I get things wrong; sometimes I fail to achieve my goals; sometimes even I feel fear (hard to believe, I know...) and well...yeah.

However, as with everything else I've ever wanted in life, I will keep working at it until I am that guy or I'll die trying. I know which is more likely, but I think a 'hero' is really the best we can hope to be, so it's worth a shot.

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'