Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.
Here's a courtesy link: TRS page
. And Badass page with its subtropes. You can also visit the sandbox page here.
Noted Problems include:
- Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
- Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
- Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.
Suggested things to do include:
- Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
- Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
- Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.
There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.
Edited by Berrenta on May 15th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM
Zzzzzzzzzz
Well, I've been keeping Badass Longcoat clean of examples like "X character is such a badass <paragraph on why>. He wears one."
Whether the Long Robe and Labcoat are sufficiently well-established subtropes and whether they're full of bad examples (I don't know, I haven't been curating them) is another question. It may be that all they need is a good scrubdown and someone to check on them regularly. It's taken about a year, but the number of newly-added bad examples on Longcoat is dropping off. So editors do work by example.
I'd argue against simply lumping them back into Badass Longcoat — that's a particular set of coat styles that are used as shorthand that the character is, thinks he is, or want to be a badass. Neither the Labcoat nor the Longrobe have that connotation — they're both more "This character wears one and is also incidentally a badass."
"Fixing" a non-trope page by dumping it into a working trope page that's only vaguely related doesn't usually do any good for either one. It doesn't fix the broken page, and it craps up the good page.
edited 31st Jan '12 11:46:16 AM by Madrugada
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
So shall we take those three to the TRS first for possible merging and cleanup? I was going to start with trying to cut some of the clear nontrope pages but that's as good a place to start as any.
Zzzzzzzzzz
Sorry, I edited to add some more while you were posting.
I don't think they should be merged (I think the long robe and labcoat are non-tropes.) but that is a discussion for another thread.
edited 31st Jan '12 11:47:56 AM by Madrugada
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
I argue that the labcoat is not an example and that the robe is just a variation on the longcoat. A longcoat for fantasy settings. However, that is indeed a discussion for the relevant thread. TRS is at capacity, though, so I can't get that started.
I think if labcoats are a trope it's that they're shorthand for scientist. That might be a better use of that trope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TRS thread for the three. Please mention in that thread if I have misrepresented or forgotten anything of importance.
Not An Avatar
I think it's really important to remove as many tropes from the Badass page as possible. It looks flat-out ridiculous and contributes to trope decay. I've been looking at older versions of the page, and it went completely nuts over the past year.
Not everything has to be a subtrope of badass! Even some tropes with Badass in them aren't subtropes of Badass. And the explanations next to every trope just look like "gushing about tropes you like". I know they're supposed to be helpful, but they really aren't.
With the Badass X issue and other non-tropes, those have to go through TRS and so on. But I think fixing the Badass page would be a good move, and something that can be done without getting bogged down. We should remove every trope on that obscenely long list unless it is an actual subtrope of the badass character type.
Opinions?
We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
I'd save Badass itself for last.
Bump. Not sure why this keeps falling by the wayside - should we move on to the next five tropes for sorting?
The Other Troper
I know Kicking Ass in All Her Finery is down the list, but as it was recently launched, and the first trope I put on this index, I want to be sure it's okay. I put it on the list because I felt that wearing clothes like that, but not being hindered by them, requires some level of badass.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
I guess these are the next five:
- Coat Cape: Remove from index. Defined as cool, not badass. The two may well go hand in hand sometimes, but not enough to make this a Badass subtrope.
- The Coats Are Off: Remove from index. Yes, it's badass, but let's just put Harbinger of Asskicking on the Badass index rather than all the tropes on the harbinger index.
- Trenchcoat Warfare: Again, Harbinger of Asskicking.
- Badass Long Hair: I guess leave on the index, but could use some cleaning up / refining. If you're a wizard or a pirate or something, it's not this trope. You'd have the long hair as part of your role even if you were not badass.
- Badass Mustache: Cut/split? The page seems all over the place, and I have trouble finding any good examples. "Well-groomed" is not usually connected with badassery. I see Gary Oldman in the Batman movies (he wasn't portrayed as badass, just competent) Mr Potato Head, Gomez from the Addams Family, Mario... we could split off Hypermasculine Mustache (which is not the same as badass).
edited 7th Feb '12 11:20:36 PM by Routerie
I see the Awesomeness.
Agree overall. Maybe we just need a separate index for things which indicate badassery by billowing in Dramatic Wind. That seems to be a very common way to engage in making something look badass.
Fight smart, not fair.
Badass Indicators Index? Or something like that.
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
I support a Badass Establisher index.
And yeah those are basically all establishers, so I agree with your proposal for what to do with those five.
That would be a sort of sub-index, right? Then support.
I'm highly dubious about the point of Badass Mustache. Otherwise, I agree.
And yes, we need that sub-index.
Here's the YKTTW. Hope I didn't jump the gun.
I see the Awesomeness.
No problem on the gun issue. I think we may also want an unindexed section of things used to highlight those traits such as Dramatic Wind (which contributes to the billowyness of the trait, but isn't a subtrope of a badass indicator).
Fight smart, not fair.
So, if I understand correctly, the current decision is to pull all five off the index, send Badass Mustache to TRS, and put the rest on Badass Establishers?
That seems a good plan.
I agree on removing all five.
Now, for the establishers index, should we add Trenchcoat Warfare and The Coats Are Off? More the former than the latter, actually.
edited 10th Feb '12 2:00:27 AM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
I see the Awesomeness.
I think The Coats Are Off is more a relative of The Gloves Come Off or whatever that trope is. I think they're subtropes of Let's Get Dangerous! or equivalent.
Trenchcoat Warfare, to me, feels much more like a combat trope than a simple badass trope.
Fight smart, not fair.
Should we move on to the next five, then?
Interest in this is fading. Why don't we start taking some things to the TRS so at the very least we get something done and perhaps revive interest in this?