General Star Wars Thread

@Nikkolas

I understand how people might look at Boba and want to know more about him. He's got a fairly unique look after all, and stands out a bit from the rest of the villains by virtue of that. Being "the greatest bounty hunter in the galaxy" though? Killing Jedi? Fighting his way out of the Sarlacc? That's when the EU writers and his fandom start to lose me.

I think Jango gets a bit of it too, what with the whole "killed six Jedi with his bare hands" thing and the "being the leader of the Mandalorians" thing that they stuffed into his backstory. I liked Jango just fine as the competent Professional Killer he was in the film. That said, however, at least his actions in the film—fighting one Jedi to a draw, killing another, gunning down the Reak and getting the drop on Mace Windu, twice—aren't totally disconnected from said backstory the way Boba's are. I also never felt he went out like a punk. He's still firing on Mace during the seconds before the Jedi closes the distance between them. Given that Jango's a man with a gun and a malfunctioning jetpack and Mace is the best swordsman in the Order at the time, I'm not sure anybody not named Dooku or Sidious could have given a better showing.

Then again, I didn't think that Grievous' appearance in the films was some terrible ruination of the character (The Clone Wars was, but that's a separate thing), so maybe I'm just a bad judge of what qualifies as going out like a punk. Actually, Grievous and Jango's roles in their respective films are rather similar in a sense—they're both non-Force sensitive Dragons to The Heavy of the film who have a unique look and enough characterization to be interesting, and who manage to give the Jedi Master they're fighting a bad moment or two before being taken down. They've also both been turned into such unstoppable killing machines in parts of the EU that their film appearances almost seem like a stepdown, when in reality, they give a pretty good showing.

Grievous was badass in the Genndy Tartakovsky cartoon, but the problem with starting Episode 3 right after Mace crushes his ribcage is that there's no context for why he's wheezing, so Grievous just looks like a chump.

I know the complaint. But hear me out:

I went into Revenge of the Sith never having seen that cartoon. I had no familiarity with Grievous beyond his ten second appearance in one of the ''Boba Fett' novels. In short, I knew he had a lightsabre somewhere on him, and that was it. And I didn't find Grievous to be a wuss. He smashed a spaceship window and escaped into a vacuum when things didn't go his way. He fought Obi-Wan one-on-one and did pretty well (people always focus on the his getting disarmed early on, but during the climax of their battle, after they've both lost their lightsabres, Grievous is on the verge of beating Kenobi to death before the Jedi grabs that blaster). For a non-Sith, non-recurring villain who wasn't the main threat of the film, that's an excellent showing. Puts him about en paar with Jango, and nobody complains about Jango being a wuss.

It wasn't until I saw the first animated series that I understood people's complaints, and even then I don't think it's worth getting upset about. He kills a fair number of Jedi sure, but he doesn't fight Obi-Wan, so it isn't as though the two sources are mutually exclusive.

Now the new Clone Wars series? That one's portrayal of Grievous was awful. Worse still it contradicts ROS by having him fight Obi-Wan and Anakin on numerous occasions. That was dreadful.

On a totally unrelated note, just read The Cestus Deception. To those of you here who haven't read it, don't. Worst romantic subplot I have ever read. Having one of Jango's exes hook up with a clone? Who she clearly sees as a substitute for Jango, going so far as to rename him from "Nate" (which she claims is dehumanizing because it's taken from his number) to "Jangotat" (meaning "Jango's brother"; what's dehumanizing again?)? Having her try and figure out if she's being unfaithful to the memory of her late husband by going for the "dangerous guy"? And then having "Jangotat" knock her up before dying? God almighty that was bad. I haven't even touched on the other problems, including a bad plotline, an out-of-character Obi-Wan, and the non-stop Jango worship (seriously, I can accept it from the clones, but having Obi-Wan talk about how "the mysterious Jango had not been truly evil"?). I generally enjoy the Clone Wars novels but that was dreadful.

Actually Grievous never meets or fights Anakin in the clone wars tv-series. In a twist of Contrived Coincidence they always manage to avoid each other.

Really? I've been watching it off and on and I swear there was at least one instance where he fought him near the beginning of the series.

Man, between that and the novelization, I really wish they'd fought.

Jango wasn't so bad. I can see saying he wasn't "truly evil" as he most assuredly had standards and we see far worse people than him a lot.

i really would recommend playing Bounty Hunter or watching cutscenes on YT. It was really good I thought. Jango was an excellent Type V Anti-Hero and a good contrast to the far more despicable people he fought.

Also worst SW novel I ever read was The Crystal Star.

edited 8th Jul '14 2:56:42 PM by Nikkolas

Crystal Star has to be it. Similar to Shadows of Mindor it takes a long leap off the "fantastical" dive-board. While i (and many others) had issues with Kevin J Anderson's books, they at least felt like Star Wars. Crystal Star was a giant non sequitor, especially since interdimensional shenanigans have not been toyed with before or since at any level of star wars canon.

Shadows of Mindor was actually a really great novel; in many ways, it enhanced Luke's characterization for me. The fact that Luke basically refuses to become a Cynical Straw Nihilist after all the crap he goes through was beautifully done.

edited 8th Jul '14 6:53:45 PM by higherbrainpattern

I never saw the Clone Wars depiction before ROTS, but in many ways I thought that Grievous was interesting because he was a different type of character. He was boastful but aware of his limitations. While his lightsaber fight against Obi-Wan was lackluster, their entire fight was an example of two people using everything at their disposal to kill the other and just barely missing. His death was quite satisfying because Obi-Wan was within seconds of being killed and the "So uncivilized" line was a brilliant Call-Forward.

When I finally saw the Clone Wars, he was certainly badass but very short on characterization. All in all he was a VERY gimmicky character whose purpose was to be a Hero Killer and that notoriety was far better than his actual presence. The Clone Wars had a hard time finding the right balance for him, as far too many of the earlier episodes had the heroes winning and Grievous losing. The show later took time to show the war as a stalemate, and the earlier episode "Lair of Grievous" added so much depth to his character that, in my mind, trumps anything Clone Wars did. He hunted Jedi as a massive ego trip, his cybernetics the result of his pride rather than a freak shuttle crash (his original origin), and instead of the chivalrous battles that Jedi vs. Sith would have, Grievous sets traps and sends in troops before going in himself.

Jango was a professional assassin. That by definition makes him a bad person. You can't kill people for money and be anything other than a bad person. And whatever standards the sidematerials might give him, he was perfectly happy to whack Padme for the heinous crime of resisting the Trade Federation's invasion of her home. The fact that he wasn't Darth Sidious doesn't mean he wasn't evil.

Perhaps more to the point there is no reason for Obi-Wan to think of him as anything other than evil. We might know he had some standards and/or had done some good in the past, but Obi-Wan's total experience with him consists of watching Jango try to kill Padme, fighting him on Kamino, and then seeing him gun down Coleman Trebor on Genosis before being slain by Mace. He's got no reason to think Jango was anything other than a bad guy, and has no reason to be drooling about how mysterious and awesome he was.

Seriously, when your story is making Obi-Wan Kenobi sound like a fanboy, you've done something wrong.

edited 9th Jul '14 9:01:24 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

But but but . . . he was slain by Mace Fucking Windu, not Padme "Agressive Negotiations" Amidala!

edited 9th Jul '14 7:31:10 AM by Journeyman

I don't know about this one. Plenty of hired killers in fiction are pot rayed as sympathetic and even good - such as Mike Ehrmantraut from Breaking Bad and Jules from Pulp Fiction. It is a horrid job but I don't think anyone who does it should be considered evil. Look at all the child soldiers in Uganda. They are paid to kill, yes, but they are forced to do this under threat of rape or death.

But, I can see your point. Jango Fett is obviously not forced to do anything and his clientele seems a bit…shall we say…unscrupulous . So, yes, he's definitely a villain but he does have his own personal code of honor and he is a good father for Boba so he's not completely irredeemable.

Apologies. It was late at night when I wrote that. It was Mace who killed him and I've corrected that in the original post. Don't know how I managed to write that wrong, because I sure as hell meant to say Mace. Jeez.

You can be sympathetic and likeable and still be a fundamentally bad person. Jango was a killer-for-hire who joined up with a plot to plunge the galaxy into civil war. That's more or less the definition of bad. I would also dispute whether any child soldier falls under the definition of "Professional Killer".

I'm not saying he's irredeemable. Just that there is no real question about his being evil, and more importantly, that there is no reason on Earth why Obi-Wan should think of Jango as anything other than a villain. He hasn't seen Jango's good points, just his bad ones. Which takes me back to my original point, namely that any novel that has Obi-Wan Kenobi fanboying Jango Fett has some real problems.

The R2-D2 Builders Club, the guys who are building R2 for use in the sequel trilogy, also built a working astromech droid based on Chopper from Star Wars Rebels.

edited 9th Jul '14 10:53:41 AM by higherbrainpattern

Nice work folks.

Now, where's my HK-47?

Okay - that makes more sense. Bad but not irredeemable.

Also - I just remembered something. I checked out Darksaber from my library and I…kind of liked it. It was no Zahn or anything but it was an enjoyable little adventure with some political intrigue thrown in. Why do so many people despise it? Is it because of Madine's death because that was the only part I did not like.

edited 9th Jul '14 3:19:48 PM by FantasyLiver

The death was certainly very random for such an important character (figure he'd be behind a desk or something by that point), but yeah, Darksaber was the best of Anderson's works in the EU. It was what put Pellaeon in control of the Empire, thus setting the stage for Zahn to use him again in The Hand of Thrawn and the eventual peace deal.

Plus he gave Daala a competence upgrade, or at least demonstrated that her real skill was in leadership and military politics more than in military prowess

Darksaber is the one where we learn Palpatine's pastime was executing that one poor bastard and then grabbing his soul and putting it in a whole new body so he could be executed again, right? The one death I recall was him being eaten alive by insects.

If nothing else, that book shows Sidious is hands down the most vile creature ever in SW history. Also while I never finished the book I think i recall reading that the character in question, when told he was to be put to death by the NR, was like "sounds good." As now he'd finally really die and be done with it. Alas, Poor Villain.

EDIT:

""At least make sure you do it right this time."

His correct Famous Last Words.

edited 9th Jul '14 4:45:15 PM by Nikkolas

That scene where Lemelisk gets eaten by those bugs makes my skin crawl, especially when Palpatine soul-transfers him to a new body and he looks back to see his mangled old one.

It was probably the only good part of KJA's Star Wars oeuvre.

My issue with Darksaber is that the villains are all utterly incompetent. It's a common failing of Kevin J. Anderson's novels - rather than bothering to make the heroes and villains both reasonably intelligent, he just makes the villains utter idiots and then acts like the heroes are "outsmarting" them.

While Daala's move to get control of the Empire is clever, she manages to lose a Super Star Destroyer fighting against a planet that has virtually no weapons. Pellaeon's entire attack force gets Force-tossed away from Yavin 4 because, for some reason, he didn't think to bring along ysalamiri when attacking a planet full of Jedi. He's been around C'baoth, he knows full well how dangerous Force-users are. The Hutt's "Darksaber" is a complete "Shaggy Dog" Story and gets destroyed before ever becoming a threat because he's so incompetent at managing a big engineering project.

Oh, and the Hoth thing is really dumb.

edited 9th Jul '14 7:11:55 PM by WarriorEowyn

I just like KJA's Tales of the Jedi comics.

Jules? You mean the guy whose character arc is about realizing that he's a bad person and deciding to give up being a hired killer?

Yeah. Look where that "walkin' the earth" got him. In a body bag after he got the shit shot out of him by the Di VAS in Kill Bill Volume 1, with a tag on his toe with a false name on it. What? You didn't know that?

You mean Kill Bill is in the Pulp Fiction verse?