Pretty Cure general thread

Honestly, I've just seen more and more backlash against Heartcatch these days. It's still the overall most liked series, but people who dislike it are crawling out now that it's been a few years. The Moonlight arc was fairly good overall, but if you don't like Yuri you won't like Heartcatch.

Suite had production problems related to the tsunami, so I can forgive a few mishaps there. I'm currently rewatching it, and I do feel that it deserves it's ranking as one of the lowest shows. The big problem is that with Hibiki and Kanade constantly fighting, it took about a quarter of the show for me to warm up to them, and by then the focus shifted to Hummy and Siren. It's odd that he most emotional moments were between two cats, but that's what happened. The Muse arc managed to have even worse pace than Moonlight, dragging on far longer then necessary. The villains were funny, but completely non-threatening until Mephisto was saved and Falsetto took over. Things don't really add up when looking at past episodes, where Muse fights better than Melody and Rhythm on stilts, no one in Major Land recognizes their former king, Ellen never notices Ako despite them presumably living together, and no one talks out the Major Land royalty issue until Ako spells it out. Ako herself got shafted hard after being unmasked, especially in the movie. Then there was the music motif. I understand they wanted a strong central motif, but it just got suffocating quickly. There were positives of course, like Hummy, Fairy Tones, and good music, but the negatives stand out a lot. I don't see it being vindicated.

Smile is a different boat. It's a rip off of Yes 5, but it takes things in a separate direction. It's not an action show or drama at first. At heart, it's a comedy. This led to some great jokes, a mostly solid cast, and some truly stand out individual episodes, but the problems were easy to see. I can actually forgive the lack of plot, seeing how Yes 5 and Max Heart barely had anymore. Lack of character development was the show's biggest flaw by far, as everyone remained static. Okay, Candy did grow, Yayoi got better, and Reika had a modicum of development, but that still leaves half the cast, including the lead, without development. Akane and Nao had a lot of similarities, Miyuki was a lousy lead, and Candy had her ups and downs. It had better villains than Suite, but Pierrot takes the cake as worst Big Bad easily. The fairy tale motif was criminally underused, especially since that's the one thing they could've easily swiped from Yes. The action was often meh and over-relied on stock footage, though when it was good it was really good. Still, the show knew what it was and kept to its promise of having zany adventures with a colorful cast. It led to a horrible finale, but the rest of the show was usually at least funny. I could see it be vindicated later on.

"Miyuki was a lousy lead".

What. She's basically a dumber Nozomi and since Nozomi is the best lead then it stands to reason that Miyuki is a pretty good lead as well.

I knew that was going to come up. I'll go into more detail when it's Miyuki's turn, but suffice to say I don't like her archetype. Nozomi was a rare gold where everything lined up perfectly for her. Miyuki was indeed dumber (probably less crazy though), but she also lacked two important things that helped Nozomi succeed, charisma and Rin. Charisma helped justify why Nozomi was in the center of everything, while Miyuki was in the center just because. And without someone to either hold back or lampshade her stupidity, she often wandered off into just a failure hero. Her impressive moments were generally eclipsed by her teammates, and her good moments didn't click as well. I'm sure there are people that like her, and that's perfectly fine, as there's no real reason to dislike her, but she had nothing to distinguish herself other than being really incompetent. She would've been better if the show focused more on fairy tales, but alas we got what we got.

And yet I still made her the main character of my fic. I don't regret it, but I still wonder why I did that.

When it comes to Smile's static cast, remember that Tropes Are Tools. As a standout example from the Static Character article itself, Lina Inverse is pretty guilty of this in the midst of a Cult Classic franchise with a large amount of continuity, yet the fans didn't complain about that. Even Erika of Heartcatch is also mentioned there and even documented to be a rather... unique case of this.

For Hibiki and Kanade, I find their personal conflict to be a refreshing play on The Power of Friendship the franchise sticks to. I'll have to rewatch Suite myself to get a more formal opinion about the other arcs though. Believe it or not, my second least favorite Pretty Cure show is Fresh, just ahead of Doki Doki. I found that calling out each team kick and punch combo during every fight was annoying and got old really fast. The final finisher was a huge disappointment in that they were all running and playing frisbee with each other. I didn't find Miki or Love to be that memorable either, but Inori... for the franchise's first Shrinking Violet, they did her right! I didn't like Setsuna at first, but reading through everyone else's thoughts on her really began to make me appreciate her. Tarte is also high among my favorite Mentor Mascots, so I can't honestly complain about him. I just might rewatch Fresh to recollect my thoughts on it, but I can say the first 10 episodes felt very weak to me compared to other series.

edited 21st Feb '14 11:53:14 PM by aNinjaWithAIDS

Slayers was more about the adventures and quirky interactions, so the static characters aren't as bad. That and I felt Lina had several layers to her that kept her interesting, even if she never changed. Characters are the most important part of Precure though, so most of them lacking development is a much larger blow, especially when they have 45+ episodes and only 5-9 main characters. It's not a deathblow to Smile, but that + plot issues led to the problems of the show being simple.

I had the same thought when I realized that Hibiki and Kanade weren't always instantly getting along. Our two main characters are constantly fighting? Cool, sounds like a neat way to shake things up. And it did at first, but by the tenth time it just got tiring. It's a nice idea on paper, but in practice if not handled carefully it just makes one or both of them look bad. I kept wandering why these two are friends for half the show.

Fresh is currently in my top tier, up there with Heartcatch and Yes 5. A very strong emotional arc, strong supporting characters, best main fairy, probably the most solid plot overall, excellent villains (except Northa), and most importantly interesting characters. All of the main characters felt organic and not a stereotype. From a conceptual standpoint I find Fresh the most intriguing, from the characters to the effect being a Cure on their lives to the entirety of Labyrinth. On the down side, Miki and Inori got kind of shafted, the Sweets Kingdom was incredibly boring, and fights in the second half had no budget. Then there's Chiffon, but I don't feel like getting into her. Inori is incredibly popular in Japan, though to be honest I can't quite see why. I could never really see why she's loved by so many.

Maybe you're right about their Vitriolic Best Buds schtick getting annoying, but that's exactly how I grew up in my household so I may have been long adjusted to it.

My absolute favorite series right now is Heartcatch, but Smile is a very close second. Splash Star and the original series + Max Heart are my third and fourth respectively. Splash Star had very good pacing to it in that we can expect something major to happen every 7-8 episodes rather than just climax at halftime and the finale. Oh and the Divergent Character Evolution from their previous counterparts was also very enjoyable to watch as well. The fights were always a sparkling blast to watch from start to finish, something not many series afterwards emulated.

Going back to the Static Character issue for just a moment: when it comes to meeting characters out of the box, ask yourself: would it be necessary or (better yet) enjoyable to make this a Dynamic Character? In my opinion of Miyuki, the answer is no because while she didn't have Nozomi's charisma, she's her own ball of fun and joy and certainly made a much better Butt-Monkey. I found Miyuki to be much more straight-forward and simpler character to understand and connect with. Her brand of idiocy is more charming to me rather than Nozomi's complete lack of common sense and attention span. To me, Miyuki is the character that actually "knows better" compared to Nozomi's "should know better" in any given situation, aside from the former's April Fools' Plot.

edited 21st Feb '14 11:54:43 PM by aNinjaWithAIDS

Hah ! Looks like I missed some pretty intense discussion here, so I don't think I can add much. Though the discussion about Miyuki and Nozomi always entertaining to watch so, do go on.

On the other hand, I disagree that Nozomi that kind of Idiot Hero; several episodes shows that she does know better, just incapable doing by theory. Tutoring Rin's siblings using demonstrations, her self-invoked double hostage situation (hurt my friend, then I'll destroy the Collet), her awareness on existence of both good, bad, and kinda bothof them people; Nozomi is the true Book Dumb of the franchise.

Miyuki, on the other hand, doesn't have those kind of Hidden Depths. Her win against Bad End Kingdom feels like pure dumb luck in many confrontations, she lacks the adaptative nature to their power like the rest of the Smile, and when confronted by the fact Bad End Generals are actually Marchenland fairies and the extend of Pierrot's threat to the world, she loses her gas before confesses that she doesn't know what to do with it.

But compare to Nozomi, Miyuki is lot more idealist even by Nozomi's standard. I have great respect for idealist; I think they're very brave and most zen-like characters. And I kinda see those traits when Miyuki goes Ultra in the movie, her voice is a different kind of serene and powerful than the Mugen Silhouette; she's powerful because she serene, Ultra Cure Happy never raises her voice, her show of power is never a punch or beamspam, a contrast to her usual screaming warrior way. Nozomi hold no candle to Miyuki in this case.

But those things kinda loses its weight because there's almost no journey between the idealist! Miyuki and the messiah! Miyuki. No depth, no foreshadowing, nothing. Nozomi becomes less airheaded most of the time through gradual exposure to more subdued people, but Miyuki shows no interaction to people in "quiet and intelligent" or "jaded" archetype in the series to see more sides of something (this is why I absolutely love Nico). Thus, Miyuki is firmly in Static Character class, and it will get stale fast in and beyond the fourth wall.

edited 22nd Feb '14 5:50:58 AM by AlaAlba

x5

Hmmm. I can't say that I agree with that reasoning. Miyuki does have Nao and Akane to keep her grounded and lampshade her actions. And while she isn't as close to either of them as Nozomi is to Rin, she does seem to be fairy close to the team as a whole.

Hell as far as charisma goes, Miyuki has quite a bit of it. It was her personality that attracted the rest of the group to her after all and even minor characters seem to get along well with and be drawn to her.

As for whether she stood out or not and the extent to how well her good moments were portrayed, that's largely subjective so I wouldn't say that those really count against her.

A character doesn't always need Hidden Depths to be captivating to a general audience, but I'll agree that it does tend to help greatly. I also stand corrected in that Nozomi knows the theory but often can't pull it off in practice; whereas Miyuki is much better at that in my opinion. As for adapting to her powers, only Akane and Reika avert How Do I Shot Web? when it comes to Smile. The others just ran and one of them did so into a wall! Again, I like that because it makes for a realistic transition into becoming a superhero so suddenly.

I completely agree. It's fun to compare and contrast these two, but they were very fun and entertaining leads as far as I'm concerned.

I would like to throw in Megumi (at least what we know about her so far) into this discussion now that a new HaChaPre episode is upon us. The way I see her is that she's like Miyuki and Yayoi put together. She's a fangirl turned superheroine For Happiness minus the Butt-Monkey tendency. She also averts How Do I Shot Web?, but I think that's partly justifed because I would expect her to have studied the Cures, especially in action as she did with Hime. I'm also finding Megumi to be more of a Supporting Protagonist and Hime is the true heroine of the story. After all, it's her kingdom that's in danger and at risk, right ^note  Earth too, but it stemmed from the invasion of Hime's kingdom. ? My concern about that statement is that the chracters' getting somewhat equal shares of Saiark purifications over the year. If not, then that point/prediction will quickly fall flat.

edited 22nd Feb '14 9:14:39 AM by aNinjaWithAIDS

Akane and Nao tried to keep her grounded, but without the childhood friend aspect they didn't actually know how to keep her in line all that well. Not to mention Yayoi and Candy tended to go along with her, while Reika was a wildcard. I never felt charisma coming from her. It all just felt like, I'm the lead so I get to be in the center. Could just be me, but that's what I got from it. Miyuki is the closest I've felt apathy to a lead. She just doesn't have anything to stand out.

The only leads I felt had charisma were Nozomi and Mana. Maybe Love, but I think it was only for Setsuna. I never felt like everyone was naturally drawn to her aside from Setsuna.

Edit: Most Cures adjust really quickly to their powers. Even the Smile Cures, even if they had to screw up once. The only Cures that lost their first battle were Blossom, Melody, Rhythm, and Princess. Lovely was dragged away before she properly lost. I agree the Smile Cures were a lot more fallible than most others. For all that Nagisa may feel more human, all the Smile Cures had a moment where they actually screwed up, so victory wasn't always guaranteed for them.

I've been saying for a week that not only is Hime the most important character, but she's also the main character. Obviously this could change, but that's how it's looking for now. Of course, just because Hime is the main character doesn't mean Megumi can languish as a generic genki girl. Thankfully I don't think that will happen. I am feeling some hidden depths from her, just like I did with Love.

edited 22nd Feb '14 9:17:54 AM by Sterok

I find Miyuki to be one of the best encouraging leads. Think about Yayoi's problems back at the beginning: she would have not gotten out of her shell if not for Miyuki. That takes some kind of charisma and confidence in other people, don't cha think?

Good at encouraging sure. I still say she lacks charisma or the ability to naturally draw in people, but I'll cede she does have a little. More than Nagisa or Hibiki at any rate. Another thing that could've been fixed had the show focused more on fairy tales. Then there would be an easy set up for Miyuki to give speeches on the moral of the day.

I was also deeply disapointed in Smile's underplayed fairy tale theme. At least the humor made up for it in spades.

@adaptative ability

What I meant by adaptative here is the fact Smile Cures can freely shape their element into anything they want/need unlike the Precure5. Beauty's items creation (sword, bow, skate), Sunny lighting her fist or anything she can use as weapon (that boken decor) on fire, March riding columns of wind (and technically her super speed too), Peace's full-bodied electrical discharge (these girls' most vicious physical attack is their elbow strike, it seems). The time Happy uses her Happy Shower as a rocket boost, she accidentally jumps into lava. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Though, I notice when the Smile apply their element into things that might or might not be compatible with said element or when the situation isn't advantageous for the Cures, it's very clever and good source of humor. Peace using her thunder underwater makes everyone got electrified and that children Cures episode, for example. I wish Happy is a little more creative with her power, though.

And, while it's true that being static is not a requirement for a lovable character (Erika and Hummy, I'm looking at you), the stake they're fighting for is a little to colossal for "I don't wanna Candy to go away, even though the world is pretty much doomed unless the situation deems that she does". With the one who says "get hold of yourselves and let's do the right thing" is Candy, it's clear why I care more about her than the Cures.

Ah, i see what you meant about adaptive ability now. I agree with most of your sentiments, but there is a play on Exact Words to be found in that arguement: "I don't want Candy to go away" is a perfectly honest thing to say in context as it refers to a feeling rather than an action (reluctance), but what I think you were trying to go for is "I refuse to let Candy go for the world's sake", which is an entirely different and selfish emotional response.

x6

Ehhh. Yayoi and Candy basically went along with anything so I'm not sure they are good examples for Akane and Nao being incapable of reigning Miyuki in. As far as charisma goes though, how does the fact that most people naturally gravitate towards her not prove Miyuki to be charismatic?

Hmm, How would you rank the villins from best to worst (Main villains, not the teams)?

Best:

• Noise
• Dune
• Goohyan
• Boss of Eternal
• Mebious
• King Jikochuu

Worst:

• Desperiah
• Mephisto
• Original Dark King (Don't even get me started on him)
• Pierrot

Hm, there aren't many good ones. Mephisto shouldn't be on that list though.

• Gohyaan
• Noise
• Director of Eternal
• Moebius
• Dune
• Baldez
• King Jikochuu/Proto-Selfish
• Desperiah
• Dark King
• Pierrot

edited 22nd Feb '14 3:07:03 PM by Sterok

I've only seen Splash Star, Yes! and Heartcatch on in their entireties so my list may be odd.

Best:

• Noise
• Goyaan
• Despariah

Worst:

• Dune
• Perriot
• King Selfish

We're making list now? Well then;

1. Noise

2. Gohyan

3. Moebius

4. Despariah

5. King Selfish

6. Dune

7. The Director

8. Dark King (maybe above the Director if it's Valdez incarnation)

9. Pierrot

Unless it explained that Joker is to Pierrot like Candy is to Royale Queen, then I'll put him above Dune.

Episode 4 of Happiness Charge. Hime transfers to the school. I have to say... Hime is plenty awkward. I really like it when the teacher chases after her and carries her like a sack when she runs out of the classroom out of nervousness. Even though everyone is pretty supporting, but in Hime's eyes, they're still frightening to face. That's quite realistic to see the transfer student's thought of what happen instead of the usual introduction speech POV.

One thing that I really notice is that the animation staff fix that QUALITY at the end of Lovely's intro speech. All I can say is "Finally!"; that one frame is very jarring, especially with Princess' heroic pose.

Lovely is pretty vicious, using the mooks to beat up the monster in a very ruthless punch combo is awesome in many way.

Hime is bonding with Yuyu again with candy. Yuyu is like that kind pink Cure archetype with blue Cure temperament in the group, while Megumi is generally more the usual overbearingly kind pink Cure. I would like to see the banter when they officially become friends.

Happiness Charge charge is supposed to be different than previous seasons. I have noticed that the pink Cure doesn't have a fairy companion, and that the villains are normal humans who aren't from a dark world.

Episode 4, and our special guest for this week is Moonlight. Damn it, I wanted someone easy, not one of the trickiest characters in the entire franchise. Blue decides to spring this on Hime at the last minute. No wonder she freaks out. Megumi lures her in with the promise of friends. Then she gets jitters anyway. Ah, she tries so hard, but it seems she's never spoken in front of so many people before. Could be a problem if she ever became queen, but she's got time to get past that. Honestly, I don't think Megumi did anything wrong, since Hime needs the push. Yuuko is still just candy girl. Hime finds a comrade in loneliness. Interesting choice. Princess gets beat up first, but she's starting to improve her fighting capabilities. She definitely prefers her beam attacks. Lovely is excellent at hitting things, whether it's with her fists or the mooks. Still great. Princess's CG attack isn't as good personally, but since I saw it coming it was less jarring. Fortune makes a cameo. Hime and Yuuko are friends now. Next episode looks to begin obligatory filler, and hopefully develop Yuuko.

Please don't post reactions unspoilered when the episode hasn't been subbed yet.

I'm batting Peace again for next week. I think I've figured out what Princess represents. She's the Cure of courage, succeeding Black and Sword. Interesting choice, but it fits in a way.

Not to mention that the lead cures dont really fit the usual stereotypes of their colors at all, even in a reverse way like heartcatch pulled.

Why do I get a feeling that when Megumi's past get's explored, I will feel that very sad feel?

Think about it.

We haven't seen her dad at all, and her mom looks very sickly and barely afford anything....

I've been saying that Megumi is fairly poor since episode 2. While I doubt it's tragic, she hasn't had a perfect life in the same vein Nozomi or Mana had. I agree her mom looks sick. Something is off with her family at the very least. She does have a dad though. He was mentioned last episode.

Honestly, Megumi still fits the pink scheme pretty well. She has some distinguishing features, but she fits the stereotype overall. Hime doesn't fit the blue stereotype though, which is interesting. Even Erika was at least pretty smart, while Hime doesn't strike me as being anywhere near a genius. Fortune is the typical aloof ally, though I mostly want to see what she thinks of Megumi. Still have no idea on Yuuko.

I also forgot to mention one thing, ninja. Hopefully all the costumes aren't a one time thing, but instead become reoccurring.

edited 23rd Feb '14 6:26:20 PM by Sterok