The Dreamstone

Dunno.

edited 4th May '16 8:05:30 PM by superboy313

Oh, hello! You must be new here.

Not sure, but I do remember Bimbles Bucket at least tried to make the heroes a little more fallible. They didn't have the same ridiculous Plot Armor the Noops had. I mean the bucket could do anything, but there was restrictions for it, unlike the Land of Dreams' magic, they had to be clever with it. Not to mention, unlike Queen Kak, Zordrak would at least sometimes take control and be a greater force to be reckoned with, if very rarely.

In terms of either villains actually winning though, not a hope. The general rule of both Jupp's shows was that the villains were the clueless underdog. They never stood a chance and it's not hidden at all (The Dreamstone, being an action series, tried to make fake tension, but it was still obvious). The best they could do is make the heroes sweat for a victory the teeniest bit.

Also keep in mind it's not just stealing the MacGuffin. They stole it several times in both shows. It was keeping hold of it that was the problem.

edited 5th May '16 12:57:12 PM by Psi001

Question - of everyone here, who prefers Leonard Whiting (voice of Urpgor through the first three seasons) over Colin Marsh (voice of Urpgor for the last season)?

Personally, I'm not really bothered - whenever I imagine his voice, it tends to vary between Whiting and Marsh.

I'd have preferred Leonard Whiting to stay the whole show (one season left after all), but can stand Colin Marsh. The latter wasn't a perfect soundalike but he reached such funny pitches and levels of emotion that he was still entertaining.

edited 5th May '16 1:31:56 PM by Psi001

Could've Dreamstone worked with a Knight of Cerebus? I've seen the show on You Tube and even I was annoyed by the Noops' goody-two-shoes demeanor, so a villain that's actually competent probably would've caught them off-guard.

edited 25th Jun '16 2:48:31 PM by superboy313

The thing is that they already had a Knight of Cerebus with Zordrak, they just almost never used him. See "Megattack" for example. I think they were a bit too taken to the Villainous Underdog format, so just placed more and more spotlight and sympathy onto the Urpneys and exaggerated the heroes' Plot Armor, not realising how broken the formula was.

The last third or so of the series did sometimes try different villains that gave the Noops more of a challenge. I mean, they still weren't exactly enormous threats, but they were menacing and nasty enough that the Noops could beat them up and it would look like self defence or karma, unlike Frizz and Nug.

edited 7th May '16 4:47:34 AM by Psi001

So, who here has read The Otherworld Anthology?

Personally, it's a little too dark for me - I only read it because Zordrak (and sometimes the Urpneys) have a minor role in it.

Never really gotten into reading fanfics.

Which is a tad hypocritical of me since I've dabbled in writing some.

edited 15th May '16 1:19:04 PM by Psi001

Well, fanCOMICS, to be precise.

Although, I suppose you COULD consider the scripts for the comics (of which there will hopefully be more in the distant future) to be fanfics.

Not to derail, but in retrospect, I think the reason why the cartoon never QUITE managed to bother me with its flaws as much as it should was because I watched at the same time with one of its contemporaries, The Legends of Treasure Islands.

Which might be my pick for reigning champion of "cool concept, poor execution" as far as TV cartoons go. Basically, Treasure Island, where the island is practically the one from Lost. On an episode to episode basis, it's actually not bad; the problem is it could never quite make up its mind if it was a serial or not. I think this is best emphasized by several episodes having Jim fight alongside his friends using a real sword, and then we have an episode where a wooden sword being stolen is enough to make him seriously consider going on a suicide mission to steal it back from the pirates (note that this isn't a sentimental heirloom, and he's never been seen with a wooden sword before).

I'd love to see either of these rebooted now that things like serialized stories, or sympathetic villains who actually get character development, are a lot more common place now than they were when these shows were new. For better or worse the biggest hurdle I imagine would be the need of a serious shift in art style.

Most of Filmfair's action adventure works had this problem, it couldn't make up it's mind what it wanted to be. Both The Dreamstone and Treasure Island had this very erratic feel since they wanted to represent many things but ended up less than the sum of their parts. Most often it was the undercurrent that things were a lot more dark and tense than they really were, both shows felt very grandiose in presentation for what they actually offered.

Since most of Filmfair's work up until then had been very laid back children's stories, I suppose it made sense they had teething troubles. In almost every case their better element was the British humour rather than Americanized action adventure (hence likely why the best executed element was usually the comic relief or bumbling villains, while the serious elements like the heroes' plights were usually half baked and rather bland). I think The Dreamstone started to come about better when they seemed to go "screw it, we'll make the whole thing comical". Treasure Island on the other hand stayed as erratic than ever till the every end.

edited 16th May '16 4:09:12 AM by Psi001

I'd love to see either of these rebooted now that things like serialized stories, or sympathetic villains who actually get character development, are a lot more common place now than they were when these shows were new.

Well, why not?

After all, The Powerpuff Girls has been rebooted; Duck Tales is getting a reboot; Ben Ten is getting a reboot; Samurai Jack is getting a reboot, so why shouldn't The Dreamstone get a reboot?

Right now, they're struggling to get even the original series rereleased. It's a pretty obscure show compared to those.

I'd love the see the concept realised more fully though, or even just more stuff following off the level it ended on. It ended just as it was starting to Grow The Beard.

edited 16th May '16 11:05:21 AM by Psi001

So, what kind of things in general are you hoping will be expanded on?

Personally, I'd be happy if it kept the main focus on the Urpneys.

Eh, I'm fine giving the Urpneys a lot of Sympathetic P.O.V. but I think a lot of other stuff needed it's fair turn. Zordrak was almost never used after Season One and the Noops were only just getting to do worthwhile stuff (and even then I wouldn't really consider them developed characters). I liked Season Four's bigger focus on other worlds and characters, but it still felt like there was more to behold. And what about these dreams that were supposedly the most important thing in the universe?

I'd have liked to see more of an actual chemistry between the two sides, which might have helped with the aforementioned Designated Villain issue. Only Spildit had something of funny interactions with them.

Also some explanation why the Noops were sent to do everything. Did the Dream Maker or the Wuts have some sort of weakness we never saw?

edited 16th May '16 12:49:09 PM by Psi001

Well, with a more serialized plot, I think one thing you could probably get that seems obvious, but wasn't there before, would be explore the notion that Rufus and Amberly were eventually meant to succeed the Dream Maker.

From there, I'd love to explore that flashback episode that seemed to imply Dream Makers were The Chosen Many, and perhaps having Zordrak's betrayal cause far more damage than it did in that episode.

That said, I'd kinda want it to start more episodic like the original. It just wouldn't be The Dreamstone without some Urpney Antics. I could actually imagine Zordrak being elevated to Knight of Cerebus level by perhaps being heavily weakened at the start; his defeat in the backstory is probably the reason he needs Urpneys to do his dirty work in the first place. I kind of want to suggest that his power over nightmares is exactly the reason they're on his side at first; instead of being brainwashed briefly into good guys by the power of the Dreamstone, just outright implying that they've been brainwashed by Zordrak's nightmares into his cowardly but obedient lackeys.

I think the big issue with Rufus and Amberley being understudies to the Dream Maker (and serving him in pretty much any other manner for that matter) is that they were powerless, semi competent mortals, while the Dream Maker was a near omnipotent wizard that "was old when the moon and stars were young". I mean, they had Took a Level in Badass and were at least doing important errands on their own by the end of it, but we still never really got some explanation why they were charged with everything or remarkable in any way compared to their magical peers (par that one time a dream of Rufus' came to life that was never brought up again).

I think Zordrak had a decent balance in Season One, he was usually dormant, but he still had some tactical involvement in some schemes and odd occasions he went and faced the heroes himself (which usually involved a Shoo Out the Clowns for Blob's squad). Season Two had Character Development from Urpgor being pressured to make more and more plans (not to mention proper reason for him to hate Blob for ruining all of them and getting him further on Zordrak's bad side) but the problem was Zordrak following that point did literally nothing. Even those odd times he went "Screw it, I'll do it myself" were absent until the very end.

I'm not sure about the Urpneys being brainwashed by Zordrak though, that's another thing that might make them look too sympathetic and the heroes too apathetic, not to mention it kinda devolves all the Sympathetic P.O.V. they get if it's revolved around "fake" brainwashed personalities. Truthfully I'd have wanted more backstory into how Zordrak seemingly conquered and mutated half of the Dream Maker's planet, and why this supposed council have done nothing to stop him.

edited 17th May '16 9:27:22 AM by Psi001

Y'know, all of that sounds GREAT!

And even if it doesn't pan out, there's enough Fanfic Fuel there to keep any aspiring fanfic writer busy for a while.

Mind you, if it DOES get rebooted, they might build on the romantic subtext between Rufus and Amberley, leading to them becoming the Official Couple. Or we might even get a homosexual couple (well, why not? If Clarence, Steven Universe and The Legend Of Korra can get away with canon gay couples, why can't The Dreamstone?).

Funnily enough, if you apply a little Fridge Logic, Rufus already would potentially be a fledgling Dream Maker unaware: in a world where dreams are the result of magic, he's able to conjure up and get lost in his own effortlessly. That's right, daydreaming would basically be a super power by the setting's logic, and already a good point to develop. Where he got it and how is anyone's guess, but that's the angle I'd push in a reboot. I'd also maybe consider giving Amberly her "dream traveler" status from The Dream Thief pilot, but maybe toned down a little; she doesn't so much reside in dreams as peek in on occasion, and this sort of dream power is why she also gets a job as an apprentice.

I'll admit "brainwashed" was a poor word choice on my part. "Conditioned", perhaps? At any rate, the Urpneys' personalities would definitely be "real", they've just also been conditioned to see Zordrak as their master and the Noops and Wotts as viscous monsters. I don't think the Noops seeing them as bad from the start is really a bad idea; this has probably gone on so long that the Noops don't even know why the Urpneys are that way, and the Dream Maker probably held back the truth for their own protection (there's no saving them without beating Zordrak, and they can still be quite dangerous under his leadership, so I could imagine him thinking it's probably best the Noops stay on guard). Besides, there's always room for character development. Admittedly, I imagine this might have only been done when Zordrak first invaded and how Zordrak subjugated the Urpneys in the first place.

Which brings me to something else; the Dream Maker needs to be failable. Not Ron the Death Eater levels; still the Big Good, but no longer a DEM whenever he feels like it, and perhaps with the occasional judgement slips that aren't played for laughs.

In the first few episodes the Dream Maker seemed more absent minded (Albert was basically his Gromit), and his powers weren't stretched nearly as ridiculously when the plot required. There was more validity why a guy like him would need assistants back then. I admit even in just comedic circumstances I would have liked one of the exasperated Noops to lampshade "You could have done that the whole time???" after pulling of a last minute DEM spell.

I'd prefer the whole hero cast to be more fallible, I think the whole thing would have benefitted by at least a teeny bit of Grey-and-Grey Morality. The nearest to such a thing happening was the Noops' getting a Miles Gloriosus backfire for getting too nasty with Frizz and Nug in "The Dream Beam Invasion", though even that seemed like it was sugarcoating them to look heroic.

The creators said they used Tom And Jerry as a basis for a lot of the slapstick, which does give sense to a lot of the problems. Way too many bad imitations were made by thinking it was just about some cat getting whacked around by a mouse the whole cartoon (not to mention, unlike the Noops, the whole point was that Jerry could sometimes be downright unheroic and could end up suffering as badly as Tom).

Even besides the Urpneys' treatment, the heroes' chemistry felt very flat. Unlike the bad guys who bounced off each other rather evenly, there was this very strict hierarchy with the hero cast most of the time. The Dream Maker and the Wuts were always better and more competent than the Noops in every way, and between them Amberley was always right and Rufus was always wrong. Not to mention how boring they usually were from lacking developed foibles and being Immune to Slapstick.

edited 17th May '16 2:27:06 PM by Psi001

Regarding the whole conditioning things...I was watching the episode "Trouble with the Miners", and I noticed that the miners appeared to be outside Zordrak's rule - for one thing, they didn't seem concerned that they would face Zordrak's wrath if they didn't send any Fire Rock to Viltheed, So I was thinking, maybe Zordrak selects Viltheedians for their physical and mental weakness, so as to better dominate them. It would explain why females are practically non-existent.

What do you guys think?

The later episodes seemed to add the plot point they were willingly employed by Zordrak, if only because they had no other way to provide for themselves (as evidenced in Horrible Argorrible, where Urpgor points out why being liberated by Zordrak wouldn't be a good thing). I get the idea that this was a retcon, given how they were more or less slaves being murdered for poor workmanship in the earlier episodes, likely so the heroes didn't look as cold blooded against them.

I admit the more I look at it, the more the Urpneys look like a crack at Brits stuck in dead end jobs. The ones that can't manage in any other lifestyle or occupation, so are stuck getting the jobs where they get no respect and everyone thinks they're a heartless bastard and gives them flak just for doing what their boss tells them to (people tend to overlook telephone salesman and repo men likely didn't choose that as their ideal line of work). Obviously it's meant to be deconstructed since the Urpneys really are in an evil line of work, though the glaring problem there was that they actually were probably only capable of doing as much harm to the heroes as such mundane examples.

edited 17th May '16 2:48:27 PM by Psi001

So, let's just say that Zordrak was destroyed and the Urpneys were freed. What do you think would happen next?

The way I see it, they have 3 options: 1 - They stay in Viltheed; 2 - They move to the Land of Dreams (Noopville can't be the only town on that side) and try to adapt; 3 - They leave the planet and seek out a new place to live.

In The Nightmare Stone when they thought Zordrak was gone, Blob and Urpgor rounded up the rest of the army and started squabbling over who would rule Viltheed in his place. Frizz and Nug as usual, just wearily went along with it.