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Rename (new crowner 4/16): Sheltered Aristocrat get usage counts

Rabid Fujoshi
Okay, so The White Prince is supposed to be the Spear Counterpart to The Ojou, non-royal royalty, right? It says so in the first sentence.

But then further down it's being used for actual princes, especially if you look down in the Literature section, and it has a place in Authority Tropes, right under Wise Prince.

I think we have a problem here, not the least of which is the name, which has prince right in it, so it's not surprising it's being confused for a type of prince. We may need to split this, as well. One might actually be Naive Prince or Naive Rich, and the other would be the actual Spear Counterpart to Oujo, (one type of which would be Naive Rich, or whatever it is.)
SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Together Forever...
Anyone know of a good, exisinting term for this? The Ojou is nice and specific, but I can't think of a commonly used male version. "Ouji" has various other connotations that "Ojou" does not have, and is far less commonly used anyway, so its no good.

Cure Candy
The only thing I can think of and put a message saying "Actual Royalty does not go here"

Outside of the anime section the misuse on the actual page is really bad though.. Kings and princes. (Real life.... wtf.)
 4 nrjxll, Fri, 19th Aug '11 7:56:23 PM Relationship Status: Not war
Giving a general name to a specific trope is just as bad as giving a specific name to a general trope.

I would support doing a Trope Transplant with this, with The White Prince becoming a trope about actual princes and this trope getting a new name.

 5 Madrugada, Fri, 19th Aug '11 7:57:11 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I think that the problem is that it's at least three different tropes all rolled into one, apparently because someone thought that The Ojou needed a male counterpart.

I'm seeing:

  • The naive-because-he-was-sheltered rich kid.
  • the innocent and kind kid
  • the buffoon

...

y'know, I take that back. This trope doesn't know what it's supposed to be.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Together Forever...
[up]

I'm not sure there really is a direct Spear Counterpart to The Ojou. There are some similar character types, but not necessarily sharing a lot of The Ojou's specific traits.

Rabid Fujoshi
The actual spear of the Ojou has two main types, from my experience. They even sort of vaguely line up with the Ojou's two types.

Type 1: Often blond, sort of a Casanova-type, and is sort of flamboyant, always carries around a rose, usually flaunts his money especially to buy things for girls or make people jealous him, may be somewhat naive or Rich in Dollars, Poor in Sense, but not a requirement, are usually nice or otherwise outgoing. Very likely to have an Instant Fanclub. Often wear white, pink or red (to appeal to the whole 'white knight thing'). (This type seems closest to what the trope says right now)

Examples: Tamaki Suoh, Guiche de Gramont, Ren Jinguji (the crazy thing, all those character have all these traits and are extremely similar)

Type 2: The cold, aloof stoic type, they are much more serious or quiet. Usually has short dark hair, may also have glasses. Also very intelligent and might be sneaky. Usually the heir to some kind of big conglomerate or business, with Meddling Parents and a lot of pressure to succeed. Often wear dark or business like clothes that are understated but usually really expensive (so they can be classy but look down on other people, including type 1s). Usually Defrosting Ice King or Jerk with a Heart of Gold types when played sympathetically. Also likely to be a Lonely Rich Kid.

Examples: Kyouya Ohtori, Shoei Jinnai, Masato Hijirikawa and Tokiya Ichinose

It's pretty common to have both of these types show up in the same series.

edited 19th Aug '11 10:49:10 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Together Forever...
[up]

That reminds me I need to watch more Uta No Prince-sama, since its good for brushing up on trashy shoujo tropes.

Edit: WTF is up with that page? Linking to it is way harder than it should be.

edited 19th Aug '11 9:15:45 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna

Rabid Fujoshi
[up]Thumbs up to everything you just said.

Yeah, Uta No Prince-sama is really hard to link to. Also it's so ridiculously over-shoujo-fied, that it's totally awesome. (Kyaa! Natsuki-chan!)

edited 19th Aug '11 9:19:38 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Cure Candy
I made a redirect with the non-hyphenated version and requested a custom title for it so "UtaNoPrincesama" will look like "Uta No Prince-sama"

Anyway yeah those are the two types really.

There are the sheltered extremely polite types but I cant think of any specific examples off hand however IIRC they come off as the submissive almost uke types.

edited 20th Aug '11 5:14:09 AM by Raso

 11 Noir Grimoir, Sat, 20th Aug '11 5:29:03 PM from San Diego, CA
Rabid Fujoshi
Yeah I've seen some that are like male Yamato Nadeshiko types, but The Ojou description does mention that sometimes males can fit the examples, so I could see those types using "The Ojou" and just mentioning they are a rare male example.

So if it's agreed those are the actual spear-counterparts, what's the best thing to do here? As it is, I think something like Prole Fascination (though I vaguely remember a YKTTW that was something like this, was it ever launched?) could be split off. Basically where rich people are fascinated by the way not so rich people live and do things.

We might want a straight up Non Royal Royalty supertrope to cover both this, The Ojou and possible School Idol and maybe a few other things.

edited 20th Aug '11 5:31:59 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
 12 Noir Grimoir, Sat, 27th Aug '11 9:47:49 PM from San Diego, CA
Rabid Fujoshi
Bump.

So what do we think should be done guys?
SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Offhand, for a retitle I'd suggest The Lordling or High Society Boy. I would say that as with some high class/bearing tropes like Lady of War, there will be real royalty who fall under its definition. Prince Naveen from The Princess and the Frog essentially matches most elements of this trope, whether or not a royal title is retained, because his character dynamic stems from being a wealthy, privileged naif amongst normals.
 
 14 Noir Grimoir, Sun, 4th Sep '11 2:44:59 AM from San Diego, CA
Rabid Fujoshi
How about The Young Master?

[up]And no, they can't be princes, that's kind of the point, and why it's the spear to The Ojou. They are non-Royal, but treated like royalty. This page is totally screwed up as written, and doesn't know what it's trying to be, a character type about naive royalty and rich people, or the Ojou's actual spear-counterpart.

edited 4th Sep '11 2:48:27 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Cure Candy
Thats a very good one there I have seen that used a lot for these types.
 16 Noir Grimoir, Sun, 4th Sep '11 2:57:23 AM from San Diego, CA
Rabid Fujoshi
Hmm, maybe we should do what nrjxll suggested and I'll YKTTW The Young Master, with the two types I mentioned (also plus a third Male Ojou-type), and we can turn this into the whole Naive Rich trope, which seems to be what it's being used for anyways.
SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
The Young Master will just get mistaken for...young masters.
 18 Noir Grimoir, Sun, 4th Sep '11 1:17:20 PM from San Diego, CA
Rabid Fujoshi
I disagree.

But I don't know, anyone have any other ideas? The Young Master just seems the best so far. I guess Non Royal Prince works but it's kind of bland.

edited 5th Sep '11 12:33:30 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Okay, what part of this trope says it CAN'T be actual princes. I agree that the point is the attitude, not actually being royalty, but absolutely no part of the description says that this is a non-royal character being treated as royalty.

Is not being royal actually part of of the trope, or is it only desired to make The White Prince parallel The Ojou? And looking at that trope, the description seems to imply that an actual princess could be The Ojou, although most Ojous aren't actual princesses.
 
 20 Noir Grimoir, Sun, 4th Sep '11 3:27:19 PM from San Diego, CA
Rabid Fujoshi
If a character is a princess, then actual princess tropes apply, not The Ojou. The same should be said for it's spear counterpart, assuming its a true spear (which one exists, this trope just doesn't describe it). Seriously, the whole point is that they are not nobility but treated like it, or at least minor nobility, and NEVER an actual princess (in which case they would be subject to princess and the trope wouldn't apply).

Like I said, this trope is getting confused between the actual spear, and when rich/royal characters who are sheltered are naive and foolish, which can apply to princes AND rich people, of either gender.

edited 4th Sep '11 3:28:31 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
 21 Spark 9, Sun, 4th Sep '11 4:49:49 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Okay, what on earth is an ojou? It sounds like it's named after some obscure character somewhere.

edited 4th Sep '11 4:50:15 PM by Spark9

Special trousers. Very heroic.
"Literally, a formal Japanese word for "young lady", the term Ojou (often Ojou-san or Ojou-sama, as they are the more formal honorifics) is typically used in anime when referring to wealthy, high-class female characters."
 23 Madrugada, Sun, 4th Sep '11 7:24:09 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
But we don't have a trope for "actual royalty who is sheltered to the point of naivete", do we?
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
 24 shimaspawn, Sun, 4th Sep '11 8:06:45 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
No, we are missing that trope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 25 Noir Grimoir, Sun, 4th Sep '11 10:47:32 PM from San Diego, CA
Rabid Fujoshi
I swear there was a trope on YKTTW about rich people finding peasant things interesting (which is part of the missing Naive Rich trope), but I don't know if it was launched nor do I remember the name.

EDIT: Ah, found it, Mundane Object Amazement.

edited 4th Sep '11 10:51:14 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

Alternative Titles: The White Prince
16th Apr '12 7:35:46 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
Total posts: 91
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