Rename (alt names crowner 4/2): Chekhovs Lecture

Chekhov's Lecture. One of the Chekhov family, thus about foreshadowing.

What the name, and most of the examples (on the page itself, not just the wicks) suggest is that the trope is a verbal Chekhov's Gun. So, that trope but something a character says that proves to be plot-relevant, rather than an object. A classic example is the "Marcellus Wallace don't like to be fucked by anyone other than Mrs Wallace" speech in Pulp Fiction, listed both on the trope and work pages as this trope.

But that's not what the trope currently is. To quote the page, "This trope is the awkward tendency of programs to use precisely what they learned in school (almost always science) earlier that episode, and to lampshade it through grating dialogue." I don't even have to check the wicks to show that most usage is wrong, as a look at the related to page shows that most of works it appears in are not based around education.

This leaves us the choice of removing all the incorrect examples or changing the definition, and I'm suggesting the later. Usage stats are 136 wicks and 151 inbounds, which, while not fantastic, isn't the worst on the site. (EDIT: Clicking "get usage counts" above this thread shows only the non-ptitled version, related to on the trope page gives the rest)

edited 16th Jul '11 3:42:08 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

"Any [thing] that later turns out to be a Chekhov's Gun al along" is already a well-known example of The Same But More Specific, so relative to the stated definition this is obviously misuse.

However, the whole Chekhov brand has been partially discredited on account of this, so IMHO I want to say rename and cut the old title.

We'd also need to axe almost all the examples. Very few of them actually relate to the trope, and I'm wishing that we could easily check where the inbounds are from.

Hm. Can we call this snow badly cloned? Let me do a check... for this, main namespaces only:

This Educational Lesson Will Save The Day Later

• American Dad: "Subverted in the episode Stan's Night Out". (Advice given in a TV gardening show, doesn't work later)
• Characters.A Song Of Ice And Fire: She constantly refers back to Syrio's lessons throughout her ordeals, though they only sometimes help her.
• Battlefield Earth: "Subverted. Johnny teaches his followers Euclidean Geometry, claiming it will be of great importance. It never is."

A Chekhov's Gun But Spoken Dialogue!

• Fourteen Oh Eight: "Mike's description of the room on how completely unremarkable it is. By the time the film ends, every aspect he describes will be twisted into a vision of terror."
• FanFic.A Complete Waste Of Time: "Early on in the intermission story 'The Seconian Memoirs', we are told that ithicans cannot attach anything to their heads, lest it result in death."
• American Gods: "It's a two-man con."
• Arthur C Clarke: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right."
• Attack Its Weak Point: "[Beowulf] knows this because of a speech from Hrothgar about dragon-slaying, in which Hrothgar claims to have succeeded with this exact technique on a dragon named Fafnir."
  • Film.Beowulf, same example
• Videogame.Back To The Future: "Making the transition so awesome is that the game drops constant hints that are easily missed."
• Baldurs Gate: "More like Chekhov's Mantra: one of the monks in Candlekeep will chant, 'The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown in their passage. So sayeth the Wise Alaundo.' This shows up in the title movie of Throne of Bhaal."
• Film.Big Man Japan: "Somewhat, when Daisatô talks about being taught to be wary of Americans when he was younger."
• Black Death: "The method of mercy-killing."
• Bone: "Thorn telling Fone about the myth of ghost circles, especially the part where a girl stepped in one and was never seen again."
• Film.Contact: "Remember that 10 second tv-bit about why the Japanese are foregoing their chance to put a candidate on the selections list? Yeah, that has some... slight importance later on."

• Waynes World: "Chris Farley has a cameo in the first film as a security guard (who provides a lot of seemingly useless information)"

Wait, What?

• Ass Pull: "In cases where a character suddenly gets a new skill without explanation, it's usually explained away as a Chekhov's Lecture or Chekhov's Skill..."
• Chekhov's Gun: "Chekhov's Lecture: Remember what you heard, when you weren't even listening?"
• Chekhov's Skill: "See also Chekhov's Lecture."

Can't tell

• Madeas Family Reunion: "About the boiling hot grits."
• An Education: The discussions of Jane Eyre in Jenny's English class.
• A Very Potter Musical: "Snape's pop quiz about Portkeys, which is blatantly lampshaded."
• Baka To Test To Shoukanjuu: "During the exam duel between Akihisa and Shouko, several questions from past episodes come up like one involving Alexander The Great and the "uneventful" Taira Reforms."
• Black Hole High: "Happens in nearly every episode."
• Breaking Bad: "Walter's boring lecture on mercury (II) fulminate"
• Buffy The Vampire Slayer: "Teacher's Pet features a lecture from the science teacher's substitute about the cannibalism seen in female praying mantises. Guess what the Monster of the Week is?"
• Camelot 3000: "Sir Gawain explains nuclear fission to the king."
• Fanfic.Candy For Your Thoughts: "Duncan receives one from a wise man in China, which is very useful in his confrontation against Alejandro."
• Cell 211: "The conversation Juan has with the other guards just before the riot breaks out."
• Children Are Innocent: (Deconstructed) "The orphans in The Devil's Backbone are an even better example: they might be a bunch of little kids who love comic books and grossing each other out with slugs, but they're a complex bunch, and by the end, perfectly capable of killing Jacinto like a pack of hunters taking down a mammoth."
• Literature.Crest Of The Stars: "In the anime, an infodump about something related to the setting precedes every opening. Said info will become important sometime in the episode."

Basic PA crowner (there may be more options): - https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/crowner.php/PageAction/ChekhovsLecture

edited 1st Nov '11 1:04:06 PM by Stratadrake

I've really become a large Un Fan of all these Chekhov snowclones. What used to be a cute literary nod has now spread on this site as a way to say the same thing over and over and over again: fiction employs causality. Or, more bluntly, things are in a story for a reason. I don't get why there have to be some many redundant tropes about this one facet of storytelling.

The same reason you have so many Badass tropes.

Looking at the examples it is obvious, that the misuse mostly comes from a misunderstanding of the Lecture part of the name, not the Chekhov's part. So the problem here is not the snowclone.

The Baka Test example is kinda right just the wick needs to be rewritten. (and the example added to the page)

Long winded explanation.

In a flash back to elementary school at the start of the episode Shouko asks Yuuji about when the Taira Reforms happened in a study session and he gives the wrong date as a response... flash forward to High School Shouko is the best student in school and he is one of the worst, the end of the episode they have a contest which is Elementary School Questions.... Taira Reforms comes up Shouko gives the answer he gave her 10 years ago while he gets it right. (unfortunately he gets half the other questions wrong) It becomes a Running Gag that the question just keeps coming up in odd places.

Anyway I very much disagree with the crowner saying its Edutainment, It shows up a lot in Slice of Life or School shows like Persona 4 (which explains pretty much the background and symbolism of the game, what is coming up and even who the final boss is in a seemingly non-important lecture.

edited 1st Nov '11 4:12:39 PM by Raso

A Very Potter Musical and the Buffy example are correct uses too.

If it's "lecture" that's the problem, then we should be able to fix things by making it Checkovs Lesson.

I'd still say the Chekhov's part is a problem, too. Like the page for Chekhov's Gun says, it "is a literary technique whereby an unimportant element introduced early in the story becomes significant later on." I'd call dialogue an element. I support cutting the article.

The definition follows that: A detail from a relatively unimportant, mundane educational lesson given early in the episode becomes important for saving the day later.

However just about every Chekhov[tm] snowclone has the problem of getting misused for "Chekhov's Gun But an X!" That's why Chekhov's Gun is the Trope Namer for Chekhov's Pun, and why it is explicitly mentioned under Everythings Worse With Snowclones.

...it's also why making new Chekhov snowclones should be a bannable offense.

edited 2nd Nov '11 8:35:52 PM by Stratadrake

I vote for a middle ground: expand the definition to make it about any informative dialogue (primarily given in an educational setting but it can be as simple as someone relating an urban legend) that proves useful later on in the story. As far as "characters talk about X, and X later shows up for real [but the talking about it wasn't something the characters actually relied on]", that should either go under its own supertrope of Chekhov's Dialogue or removed.

Calling the crowner in favour of renaming the trope. Can we get some alternative title suggestions?

I want to go for something like Third Act Pop Quiz or First Act Lessons Are Always Tested or the Observed Lesson Guarantee. But, y'know, actually good.

All School Classes Are Relevant ?

I actually like Third Act Pop Quiz. Maybe Lesson Of The Plot or Lesson Of The Solution?

Chekhovs Fact would be a more generic snowclone that covers anything that about information rather than objects.

Is the crowner called? I was going to propose a Trope Transplant, if the trope the name implied had enough examples.

"I vote for a middle ground: expand the definition to make it about any informative dialogue (primarily given in an educational setting but it can be as simple as someone relating an urban legend)"

This seems like the thing to do.

I think this is a case of Missing Supertrope Syndrome. The problem is that "Lecture" has multiple valid usages—it can refer to a lecture specifically in a classroom setting, or to any exposition delivered didactically. This trope is restricted to the former, and it's a subtrope of the currently-nonexistent trope that covers the latter.

Both are tropable, but the name here is ambiguous because it could refer to either. The snowclone gives people permission to infer the meaning from the name—that's what snowclones are for—and so the ambiguity becomes a problem. I'm sure the Example as a Thesis wasn't helping either (I've just gone ahead and axed it).

Does that sound about right?

Some combination of renaming and YKTTW'ing seems ideal, although I dunno about the exact details.

IMO, either use "Conservation of Curriculum" as a redirect or better transplant under this name and use the old name as a redirect.

Swapped out the crowner.

Most of the options on the crowner seem to stretch the trope out a lot father than the description covers.

You are welcome, of course, to add more options to the crowner.

My mind is drawing a blank....

Nothing I think of gets the point across "This lecture will help you outside the classroom later in the series" Most of them sound like This Will Be On The Test which some games like Persona 4 and TV series do do that.

ccoa, your Mod Hat avatar looks sort of...sensual, maybe? I dunno exactly what it looks like, but it's not scarier. Shouldn't it be scarier, like with blood dripping from exposed evil-cat-fangs or something?