Clear Up Definition and Correct Misuse: Urban Fantasy

In the Image Pickin' thread for Urban Fantasy, an issue around the definition came up. Apparently, a few people are unclear about the true definition, and a split had been propose.

The correct definition is a fantasy work set in modern times on Earth. Several other definition includes a fantasy work in any urban setting (Earth, modern or not). This is Wikipedia's definition. And then there's a fantasy work set in modern times with a masquerade.

My suggestion: Split and make Urban Fantasy a super trope for any work with fantasy elements set in an urban setting. The currrent definition should use Modern Fantasy.

It's not so much a Masquerade that's needed as it needs to be set in Earth more or less as Earth is. Part of Urban Fantasy is that it happens here and now. It's not really set on Earth if all you're using is the map and you replace everything with magic.

I agree.

I will suggest, however, to make it "fantasy set after Industrial Revolution" instead. Shimaspawn bring a point in the other thread that, by Wikipedia definition, Harry Potter is not Urban Fantasy. Strictly speaking, a fantasy story setting in a modern times country side wouldn't be Urban Fantasy either, which is quite silly.

I believe the Industrial Revolution is a good cut-point to separate the times usually associated with 'magic' and 'science'. A Urban Fantasy would be a fantasy story set in the times more associated with 'science'.

What if it is a world "just like Earth but with magic"? Your definition exclude these, but there is no good reason for that.

For example, Hunter X Hunter is pretty much modern world with a different world map. It got cities, cellphones, internet, etc. And monsters and people with weird powers. Seems the same trope to me.

Pokemon is not all that different. Take out the mons itself and you have our Earth with a different map.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:03:51 PM by Heatth

That's really more Magi Tech generally. If both magic and tech are wide spread they tend to get too tangled in each other to really be Urban Fantasy.

Hunter X Hunter wouldn't count because it's not Earth right off the bat. Other than that, never seen it so I can't comment.

Pokemon is a great example of being closer to Magi Tech. They use a combination of "magic" (pokemon powers) and "tech" to create a Schizo Tech world running on Magi Tech. Their power plants are powered by the universe equivalent of magic after all.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:07:11 PM by shimaspawn

I understand Magi Tech as 'magical together with technology'. Which is not the case of eitehr Pokemon nor Hunter X Hunter. The technology is just the same as we use (or mostly the same). The fantasy elements are separated from that.

AS for HXH, I am asking why you should exclude it just because it is technically not Earth. Change the map and you got Earth with monsters.

(I suppose Pokemon technology slightly more advanced, though)

edited 21st Jun '11 9:07:09 PM by Heatth

Not really if Magic and Tech are completely separate and in the case of A Certain Magical Index actually are rivals and a war is brewing.

What to do with shows like Digimon where its exactly like Urban Fantasy but slightly handwaved. (its not sci-fi though.)

Pokemon is both more and less advanced. That's generally what happens when you start mixing magic and technology. They're ahead of us in some places and behind us in others.

I told you before, I don't know Hx H so I really can't comment on what it may or may not be like.

If magic and tech are completely separate and there's a war brewing, then it doesn't have much resemblance to the world as it is.

Digimon are made out of data. They are powered by Science! not magic. It's a sci-fi. I love the show. It's a sci-fi.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:09:55 PM by shimaspawn

What I ams saying, Shima, is you can get magic in a modern world without being Magi Tech. You said my definition was more like Magi Tech, but it isn't.

I agree Digimon is pure Sci-fi, though. The line between Sci-fi and Fantasy have been notoriously thin, but Digimon is defined by "science", thus it is sci-fi.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:12:41 PM by Heatth

You can get magic in a modern world without Magi Tech, but it's really hard to have open well established magic, open well established tech, and not have the two turn into it.

The magi are hidden and under the guise of the church. Tech is announced and out there in a school called Academy City and use tech to create espers. (only in Academy city is there tech above what we currently have)

And esper has powers like Xmen mutants (Rated levels 1 - 5) but can not use magic or they will die. Magic was created because there are people that are level 0 and cant become an esper.

We will need a Urban Sci Fi page then Digimon has more in common with Urban Fantasy then it has with any other Sci-Fi trope.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:16:02 PM by Raso

Raso, you have a bad habit of twisting things and trying to shoehorn them in badly. I'm not going to comment on any descriptions of things you give that I don't know the source because they generally don't turn out to be that accurate. And I'd really need to read the work to know if it counted or not.

Urban Sci Fi is 20 Minutes into the Future. It's defined as Urban Fantasy, but for sci-fi. Digimon is even listed on the page.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:22:18 PM by shimaspawn

Then adding that as a redirect.

and sorry I just was trying to grab a work I know and explain it.

It's fine. It's just more productive to discus examples we all know.

Yeah. But, it is possible, as Hunter X Hunter shows.

Furthermore, there is many more shows that your narrow category don't cover. For one thing, if there is a Mascarade, but the show is set in, lets say, the 30s, it do not fit your definition, but it fit mine.

Also, lets say we have a world that is exactly like ours, but it is not ours (like Hunter X Hunter, but without monsters). Saying it is a completely different genre is just weird. It is like saying a medieval fantasy set in medieval Europe is another genre from a medieval fantasy setting in [[/Forgotten Realms Faerûn]]

Also, Raso, To Aru Majutsu No Index is a Urban Fantasy even by the current definition. Heck, there is even a Mascarade there.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:25:28 PM by Heatth

I'm ok with expanding it to post-industrial revolution as long as it's pretty much earth as it was then. Before that time though it's pretty much straight fantasy though.

The Faerun vs. Europe thing are actually generally different genres. It often listed as one of the big differences between High Fantasy and Low Fantasy. So it actually makes complete sense. High Fantasy is in another world. Low Fantasy is in this one but with minor but open supernatural elements.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:30:38 PM by shimaspawn

Oh yeah you can have magitech in an Urban Fantasy Negima does that really well with the Robot Chachamaru (Robot Girl powered by magic) and well the entire festival arc 3000 male Chachamaru's vs the Mahora mage army which was just muggles given mage weaponry like magic rocket launchers and wands (calling it a game with points for kills).

As well as it managing to fit High Fantasy elements in the Magic World arc.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:35:25 PM by Raso

Oh, you are being too nit-picking. Also, there is no reason for a Europe based medieval fantasy not be High Fantasy. And, anyway, Low Fantasy page list tons of examples that are not on 'Earth', anyway. The difference between this two tropes is not "one is in a made up world and the other is on Earth". It is closer to "idealism vs cynicism" (to make a over oversimplification).

edited 21st Jun '11 9:34:26 PM by Heatth

Yes Low Fantasy's ex poster child was Final Fantasy Tactics which was just War Of The Roses "War of the Lions" with magic and not set on earth.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:37:53 PM by Raso

I would argue that the Industrial Revolution is a bit of an early cutoff. I mean, anything by a modern writer set in the Victorian era would technically count for Urban Fantasy under that definition, but that kind of "gaslamp fantasy" has a completely different feel and a different set of common tropes than what's traditionally considered Urban Fantasy.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:40:49 PM by bluepenguin

Negima is High Fantasy more than Urban Fantasy. Too much Fantasy and not enough urban, but it's borderline.

Urban Fantasy is traditionally set on Earth. The genre is defined by it's plausibility. It's our current trope definition. I wouldn't mind a supertrope for modern fantasy that's set elsewhere, but it's not what's traditionally defined as this trope.

Post 1900s IMO. Anything else before that is most likely Steampunk (with magic?) FFT had a Steampunk based area though.

Wait no way Negima is 100% urban fantasy till they actually travel to the Magic World. Normal looking settings (but underneeth is a hell of alot magic stuff), one of the girls likes Avril Lavine and Sex Pistols. It has everything that has been described for Urban Fantasy here.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:46:26 PM by Raso

Does Percy Jackson counts as Urban Fantasy. It's basically Greek Mythology which adapted to the 21st century.

Don't know it, but from the page description, I think so.

The bits of Negima I know haven't had any urban in them. I really don't know the series that well. I really don't care where people stick it though since they seem to put it everywhere even if it doesn't fit.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:45:26 PM by shimaspawn

I don't know why it wouldn't count; it clearly meets the "modern Earth as we know it (but with magic!)" criterion.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:45:50 PM by bluepenguin

Eh, why "not enough" Urban. Half of the manga is set in a full urban setting. A full of fantasy full urban setting. It is just the current (and long) arc that drift away from that.

I guess you are right. I am not too familiar with that era, though. Don't know how much 'urban' it was. It may fit, depending how you see things.

Seems fine to me.

(damn ninjas)

edited 21st Jun '11 9:46:51 PM by Heatth