Loser
What Measure Is an Index? says the following:
Long story short, an index about tropes in which something or someone isn't afforded the same rights and considerations that similar entities get despite deserving them for some reason or another.
What Measure Is a Humanoid? says the following:
The romance element can be anything from subtext to full blown relationships, and for some reason are never treated as if there's any reason why they should be squicky at all.
From what I can tell, What Measure Is a Humanoid? is the exact opposite of what "What Measure" tropes are supposed to be. Rather than someone not getting the same rights or considerations that similar entities receive, someone's relationship is treated as if it is not squicky when some people might think it should be.
Anyway, I agree that it needs a rename because I do not think it fits the requirements for a "What Measure Is A" trope.
edited 3rd Feb '11 4:36:51 PM by LouieW
"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
Bumping this. The name is awful, but I need some consensus besides one person before I rename it.
I can support a rename. It's a textbook Bad Snowclone with low usage and a Non-Indicative Title. Bad title all-around. Any suggestions for a better one?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Unusually Uninteresting Relationship? It's a play on Unusually Uninteresting Sight.
edited 14th Feb '11 3:38:54 AM by Ookamikun
That sounds perilously like an excuse for complaining, as in Shallow Love Interest.
edited 14th Feb '11 8:05:33 PM by nrjxll
I agree that this needs a rename... maybe Not Human Not A Problem ?
An Ex-Troper
Definitely another one that needs a rename; I like Not Human Not A Problem.
Not nearly a good enough singer for the Choir Invisible, and the Basement Room With A Synth Invisible is much less prestigious.
Again, though, that sounds like it could apply to any generic Interspecies Romance. This is specifically about shapeshifting.
Zzzzzzzzzz
This needs a nice clear non-snowcloned name like Shapeshifted Lover.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
World's Toughest Milkman
I don't think it's about shapeshifting per se (though I admit that the description isn't very clear). As near as I can tell, the relationship between Spock's parents would qualify here. It does specify "not Petting-Zoo People, just a nonhuman that spends most of the time looking human", but a Vulcan should qualify under that definition. In fact, one of the examples is the amorous adventures of Captain Kirk.
I think this is intended as a subcategory of Interspecies Romance, where one of the participants is human and the other a Rubber-Forehead Alien or Human Alien, i.e. close enough to human that it's more acceptable than other forms of Interspecies Romance. Note that it actually says, "See also some cases of Interspecies Romance, Robosexual." (Emphasis mine.)
I agree that the current name has to go, in any case.
edited 3rd Jul '11 6:40:42 PM by Xtifr
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Zzzzzzzzzz
What Measure Is a Humanoid?: "This is where there's something romantic going on between a human and something that, for whatever reason, looks equally human but is actually nonhuman (not Petting-Zoo People, just a nonhuman that spends most of the time looking human)." Note the pothole to Voluntary Shapeshifting.
By contrast, Interspecies Romance: "The constant desire of fantasy/scifi authors and readers to have sex with things that are not quite human - elves, aliens, robots, sentient animals, demons, vampires, etc"
Spock's parents are an Interspecies Romance, according to that definition.
edited 3rd Jul '11 7:23:48 PM by Madrugada
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
World's Toughest Milkman
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You're right, I overlooked that second pothole. At the same time, I have to wonder if that was intended merely as an example, or a defining characteristic.
The trope I thought it was is a far more common trope. Maybe it should be broadened? (Although that might make most examples of Interspecies Romance fall under the new trope, simply because Most Writers Are Human. But there would still be a number that wouldn't—Elf-Dwarf romances, for example, or Vulcan-Klingon, or Human-Horta.)
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Zzzzzzzzzz
Interspecies Romance should be the supertrope — simply "Lovers or mates who aren't the same species".
Then we can collect the subtropes we already have for it (What Measure Is a Humanoid? for shapeshifters; Hot Skitty On Wailord for physically impossible pairs, something for the definition we've got on Interspecies Romance now: to all appearances a human, but not); and make whatever other ones fit.
edited 3rd Jul '11 7:58:16 PM by Madrugada
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
In point of fact, I created this thread because people kept misusing it for things like Kirk and his approach to first contact. This trope, again, is about shapeshifting.
Shapeshifted Lover is easily the best, most comprehensible title so far. Admittedly it doesn't cover the whole isn't-this-squicky part of the description, but I'd rather cut that part anyway - one person's Squick is another's Fetish Fuel, and it makes this page have an unnecessarily YMMV feel.
Edit: Wait, the current description for Interspecies Romance doesn't cover all types of Interspecies Romance? What the heck?!?
edited 3rd Jul '11 7:59:19 PM by nrjxll
Dragon Writer
How does this compare to Shapeshifting Squick?
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Zzzzzzzzzz
^^ Nope. It doesn't. For some reason people hate to propose supertropes. I'd guess that probably nearly half, if not more, of the supertropes we have now have been identified in discussion that started out like this one.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
The mind boggles. It probably doesn't need pointing out that the examples for Interspecies Romance treat it as Exactly What It Says on the Tin.
Isn't Shapeshifting Squick having its own TRS discussion right now?
Zzzzzzzzzz
It's got a thread, but it's been quiet for about ten days.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
World's Toughest Milkman
Agree with Magruda 100% that Interspecies Romance should be broadened to be the supertrope, and am as boggled as nrjxll* that it isn't already. Man, what a mess! I'm generally a fan of cute or clever trope names, but only when they work!
As for this trope, I'm fine with Shapeshifted Lover.
Should we at least run a single-proposition crowner? I'm seeing near-unanimous agreement on changing the name to something else!
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
World's Toughest Milkman
Bump. While this has been idle, Interspecies Romance has been broadened to be Exactly What It Says on the Tin, so that's good, but this trope still needs attention.
What Measure Is a Humanoid? found in: 18 articles, excluding discussions.
This title has brought 74 people to the wiki from non-search engine links since 20th FEB '09.
Pretty sad; I'm a little surprised at the number of inbounds, but that may have more to do with age than anything, and we can keep this name around as a redirect if we do still want to change it (I do).
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
It doesn't have much bearing here, but what was done with the original definition of Interspecies Romance anyway?
As to this trope: as I said before, I prefer ditching the "but wait, isn't this squicky" part of the original definition and just making it into a trope about Shapeshifter Romance. We can still mention it, but I don't see why it should be the primary focus of the definition.
edited 20th Aug '11 2:33:18 AM by nrjxll
World's Toughest Milkman
Not sure about the answer to your first question. As for removing the squick factor, I strongly agree! It's an entirely unnecessary narrowing of the trope.
Shapeshifted Lover or Shapeshifter Romance? No strong preference between the two. Would be nice if we could come to an agreement without a crowner though, so I'm sticking with the former unless there's a dispute (and reasons offered).
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Shapeshifting Lover is already a trope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Zzzzzzzzzz
What needs to be done to get this one moving again? I think we can dispense with the "rename or not" single prop, since there has been absolutely no defense of the current name offered.
Alt names crowner?
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Crown Description:
What Measure Is A Humanoid
Sigh. Here we go again...
Firstly, this is a classic example of Everything's Worse With Snowclones. Unlike all the other What Measure Is an Index? tropes, this is not about "humanoids are treated poorly by the work". It's about Interspecies Romance where one partner is only human(oid) some of the time, and this is not treated as squicky by the work. Nothing to do with the rest of the snowclone family.
Secondly, trope decay has occurred to the point where this is starting to overlap with plain ol' Interspecies Romance. Some of the examples have nothing to do with shapeshifting. The trope page's own creator pointed this out in the archived discussion. Even the laconic, "It's not bestiality if they look human some of the time", has it wrong - this can apply to any shapeshifter (for instance a Starfish Alien that assumed A Form You Are Comfortable With).
To conclude, I suggest it needs a rename and a rewrite to make it clear that this is a specific trope and not just a subtrope of Interspecies Romance. It may also need a YMMV banner, as I think there's more than a little subjectivity to it.
edited 3rd Feb '11 4:26:03 PM by nrjxll