Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Danel: Cut this, because Landen is barely in the books. He's just not an example.

  • Thursday's husband Landen Parke-Laine in the Thursday Next series is a borderline example. In this case, Thursday, being deeply in love with him, is hardly an unbiased narrator: he is not preternaturally perfect, just perfect from her point of view. There may be an element of Author Stand-In in Landen (most obviously: he's an author!) and Jasper Fforde has admitted as much in the Q&A section on his website, adding that "If Thursday Next existed, I would be in love with her."

Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and moved it here. To be a Relationship Sue, one does have to have some Mary Sue qualities. Maybe she's a Parody Sue? (Or a Parody Anti-Sue?)
Rebochan: I cleaned up the Doctor Who entries. And while I don't think Rose Tyler or River Song are Sues, they both skirt close enough to it (and Rose has been admitted as one to a certain extent) that it certainly deserves mention here. I also pulled the Ranma 1/2 entry because it doesn't fall under Sue, but rather Cleaning Up Romantic Loose Ends.
  • I had some second thoughts on the Rose and River Song entries and altered them accordingly. Specifically because I still can find no evidence that the producers actually called Rose a Mary Sue or that RTD was expressing his own fantasies with the Doctor and not simply the audience at large (which is the role of every companion in the franchise). I still won't take them out because both characters are accused of Suedom even though they don't fit at all.
    • I don't think either should be here, because they don't fit. They are both accused of it, but that's not the same as being a Relationship Sue. I personally don't like one at all (go ahead and guess which) but I don't think she's one by any means.
    • I don't think either one is a Sue either. I'm not entirely sure what the standard of commonly accused of being a Sue is - do we include them or not? I've heard it about Rose about half a dozen times even if she isn't one. I heard it for River Song as soon as the episode aired.
    • I've heard it so many times for both I just roll my eyes when it comes up. Most of it seems to be character bashing in disguise.
    • Why do you think I always fought the Jenny entries for the Sue pages? Same reason. Okay, I'm pulling this on account of not being a straight up Sue.

  • What's the opinion on stating that Rose started out as a fully rounded, three-dimensional character, but over the next few series was gradually Flanderised into becoming a Sue?
    • Subjective as hell. Her character was fine, but the level of importance the story placed on her relationship with the Doctor sharply divided a lot of fans. I never thought she hit Sue levels, and as you can see, there was later discussion that made the point that neither character was a Sue. By the time the Rose stories had ended, it seemed less that Rose was a Sue and more that Rose was yet another method the show used to show how the Doctor will always get screwed over by life in any way possible.

Rebochan: To the person that keeps adding the entry, I'd just like to add that Rose did not break down the walls of reality. If you think that's true, I question whether you watched the show - they made it extremely clear that Rose got through the walls of reality because they were already broken by Dalek Caan.

Shay Guy: Okay, Whovians, there's a thread in the forums for arguing about this stuff.

Rebochan: Well, it's better to keep these on the discussion pages for the articles they're on. That thread is a more general Sue discussion topic.
Elihu: Took out because it doesn't fit exactly. If anything, she's just a rival turned love interest in a very long and complex Slap-Slap-Kiss. Nothing about her really screams "Relationship Sue!"
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here. I no longer feel that this is a Relationship Sue (she spends much of the plot fighting for her independence to the point of Double Standard); she's probably more a Tsundere type. Since I supplied no URL, independent verification is gonna be difficult.
  • "Song and Dance" by V.J. Brandt [url withheld]. A Real-Person Fic whose central Mary Sue is a hard-luck case in a rich but strait-laced household; now she's turned exotic dancer, and she wins The Beatles's friendship and Paul McCartney's heart. (He's a mild Sympathetic Sue with some Stepford Smiler, but he's Paul.) This relationship is never smooth, since she's also a Tsundere Sue, but she's still depicted as Paul's true beloved—enough so that, after she dies, he has trouble accepting Linda when he realizes she wants to marry him. Her ghost has to pressure him into it... After June 2006, this story had Unfortunate Implications.

fleb: Hey, Orihime, what's that a picture of? 481861286.jpg isn't an enlightening filename.

Twilight: Yea, I'd like to know too.

theorc: Cut both the Doctor Who and Daria entries. Neither are Sues. They have people who don't like them, but that does not equal Sue. And both have been here before and were cut.
  • So Tom drops in out of nowhere, sweeps both Jane and Daria off their feet (essentially cheating on the former with no long-term ill effects), is always right to the point of making the girls occasionally seem like idiots in comparison, and often knows just the right way to solve their problems, but he's not a Sue? So what would you call him? Hell, he's even got a different eye color than anyone else on the show! If he'd shown up in a fanfic, would there be any question about his Sueness?

    • I really don't know enough about the character to make a judgement. The eye color thing, though, is superficial. Sues can have ordinary eyes; non-Sues can have unusual ones. Thinking like that is what leads to Anti-Sue.

      • I don't wish to offend, but if everything I described in the entry matches a Sue, and you don't know enough about the character to judge otherwise, then why did you? And why should I not restore it?
      • I try to err on the side of caution. But if you want, put it back.
      • Well I did watch the show and I do know the character and that man is not a Sue. The only people who claimed that were angry shippers butthurt over the end of Daria/Jane or Daria/Trent. And Tom was not the perfect guy, it was pretty obvious from early on that Tom and Jane were not a good match, and Glenn Eichler explicitly stated that his role for Tom was not to be the perfect guy, but to create a character that Daria would realistically date. Dating Jane first was entirely designed around the fact that Daria would not approach a guy on her own and she wouldn't drop her guard around one unless she had to spend a lot of time with him - and the only person she spent a lot of time with was Jane. Plus both girls broke up with Tom because they weren't compatible! How can a Relationship Sue not be 100% perfect for the character they were created to date? Hence why I always remove Tom when he pops up here and on some of the other relationship pages.

Prfnoff: Removing all Canon Sue examples:


theorc: Removing canon characters is actually a very good idea. Especially in a long running series, the writer usually wants some characters to get into relationships. That person isn't always there from the beginning, though, and in my humble opinion it's better to introduce someone new then to force a relationship. This is that rare Sue that's really only in fanfic.

Rebochan: I have restored all of the Canon Sue examples because they were removed without warning or discussion. Please discuss this topic on the Canon Sue Discussion page so there will be consensus.
Decide the fate of the examples here.
Rebochan Thought I'd get back to the cleanup process - I pulled multiple entries that were weak, not describing this trope at all, or picking up justified edits. Since this is a smaller cutlist than some of the other pages, I thought I'd actually *describe* my reasoning for the cuts. Do not restore them until we've had discussion on them to determine whether they're really examples or not.

    Chopping Block 

Rebochan: Pulled just one:

  • Pete Wisdom is basically Warren Ellis' Relationship Sue, created to get with Kitty Pryde, Chris Claremont's God-Mode Sue. He's cut from the same mold as Ellis' other British, snarky, cool self-inserts, such as Spider Jerusalem.
    • This troper can only wonder how Spider Jerusalem can be thought of as British, or cool for that matter - the guy is short, unattractive, considered disgusting by most women, and suffers from brain damage causing him to act even more erratic and self-destructive manner than he normally would. Ofcourse if "cool" means "can shoot the President of the United States with a diarrhea-inducing weapon and get away with it" it's a different story...

Honestly, I should have caught that example and pulled it before the justifying edit because there's nothing in there to explain why he's a Relationship Sue except that he exists. The Justifying Edit makes a strong argument against Sue-status. And I'm not familiar with every incarnation of the X-Menn, but Kitty is in no way a God-Mode Sue considering the power levels of the other characters she's regularly featured against, so even if the example goes back, you're going to have to find me Kitty rewriting reality while brainwashing hot guys to be her love slaves and coming back from the dead at least 20 times before you can convince me she's a God-Mode Sue.

St Fan: The Code Lyoko canon example is a clear parody of this trope, hence it is worth mentionning.

Ethereal Mutation: We have Parody Sue for that purpose. Feel free to move it there if desired.

St Fan: Indeed, that might fit better. Moving on.
Air Of Mystery: Edited out the Transformers Armada bit about Alexis. A, because it was an Anime and not a Western animation, and B, just because she (sort of) had some UST with Starscream doesn't make her a Mary Sue. Jealous original poster, perhaps?
Rebochan: Pulled out the Ranma example - that was Takahashi Cleaning Up Romantic Loose Ends.