This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Hasher Britarse Look, I know they are cold-blooded and can both walk and swim, but they have waterproof, scaly skins,lay shelled eggs and have no tadpole/eft/pollywog stage. They're reptiles, not amphibians.
DoKnowButchie: Um, I don't see how First Law of Resurrection applies to the Shredder and Stockman, seeing as how they were never intended to actually stay dead when they were respectively "killed", which, as I understand it, is a requirement of the trope—they were never to be considered Deader than Dead or Killed Off for Real. However, if I've misunderstood the rule, then feel free to re-add. It does still apply to the TMNT-verse in general—there are several characters to which the trope—but not those two.
DoKnowButchie: Eliminated Big Brother Complex, as nothing in the trope description fits Leonardo at all. Also deleted Battle Butler, since neither Hun or Karai satisfy the "completely loyal" description, and because whatever Bebop and Rocksteady are actually two thirds of a Team Rocket.
DoKnowButchie: Eliminated the color descrptions for each of the turtles. Not only is it not always true—Mirage comics, anyone?—it doesn't really say anything about the turtles except to give out a detail that everybody should know by now.
Kilyle: What, the colors? You mean their signature mask colors, or the colors of their skin? If it's the former, it's still something that should be on the page - we have tropes about color symbolism, and people might want to compare the Turtles to what else is known. (You should not treat this series as something everyone knows. It may be big in a lot of places, but this wiki draws people from all over the world, so nothing is ubiquitous.) Also, I personally would like to know if there's a specific pattern that is followed when their skins do differ - as opposed to just randomly assigning who is the more grayish green or brownish green and who is the brighter green.
DoKnowButchieFair enough; however, the fact that it's not a constant element (since the original comic has always had them wear red bandannas) and that it wasn't there originally should be mentioned. As for the skin colors, I've always understood them to be consistent, ever since they were assigned to the original action figures.
Mr Death: Who rearranged the order of the cast? It totally screws up the song reference. Changing it back.
DoKnowButchie: Scaled down the Shredder's description, as it was too long compared to everybody else's. It was less a blurb and more of a paragraph.
Metal Shadow X: Since I didn't think it would be added, I couldn't resist making the Hey Its That Voice Entry. That is bound to be a big one.
DoKnowButchieZog is not a major character, so he doesn't qualify for Killed Off for Real status. Deleted.
DoKnowButchie Moved the description of April's Most Common Superpower to the trope page; given the amount of trope-age in this one, I think it'd be best to stick to short, one- or two-phrase examples here, and more detailed ones in each individual trope page.
DoKnowButchie: Edited the following and moved it to Executive Meddling:
- An intended follow up season was aborted following strong fan criticism, and a fierce three-way struggle between Mirage, 4Kids, and Playmates began over who had the better direction for the franchise. A card game-based series was rejected, a series with the Turtles caring for their infant past selves was rejected, and a completely fresh reboot was rejected.
I also deleted the following because a) it’s specific to only a few incarnations of the characters, b) it goes against the purpose and the structure of the segment, which is to describe the characters in the most general and inclusive terms possible, leaving details to the tropes below.
- In the comics, she is the adopted mother of Shadow, the daughter of Casey's deceased second love Gabrielle, and was later revealed to have been created through her father's use of an interdimensional Warp-Pen.
- In various versions of the franchise, Karai often begins as a honourable warrior who allows the lure of power or vengeance to poison her spirit. She develops a close bond with Leonardo in the comics and in the modern series. In the latter's case, she finds love with a scientist called Chaplin.
DoKnowButchie: Removed the now-redundant character section; moved it here for posterity.
The characters seen in most incarnations of the turtles are:
- Splinter - The Mentor. Taught them to be ninja teens. A mutated rat of Hamato Yoshi (or Yoshi himself, in the first toon) turned father figure. Weapon of choice: Walking stick or bare hands (paws?), with which he still regularly kicks the Turtles' shells.
- Leonardo - Leads. Weapon Of Choice: twin Ninja-to, although they are invariably referred to as katana, possibly because...well, you know...
- Donatello - The Smart Guy. Does machines. Weapon Of Choice: the bo staff.
- Raphael - The Lancer. Is cool but crude. Weapon Of Choice: twin sai. Very much forms the Red Oni, Blue Oni pair with Leo.
- Michaelangelo - Is a party dude. Sometimes an artistic type. Weapon Of Choice: twin nunchaku, but is also the only one who can offensively use a grappling hook.
- April O'Neil - Computer programmer or reporter, and usually the turtles' first human friend. Different incarnations has used her across the whole spectrum, from Distressed Damsel to Action Girl, team mom, cool big sister, and mission control, or a combination of all of them.
- Casey Jones - Vigilante with a sports motif and ally to the turtles. He and April are the series' major couple. He usually begins as an unstable loner, then grows into a close friend to the group.
- Oroku Saki (a.k.a. The Shredder)- A Ninja Master with ties to the New York underworld. Alternates between big bad and the dragon. Depending on the incarnation, he is either the Turtles' deadliest nemesis or an incompetent joke villain. Note: While all Oroku Sakis are Shredders, not all Shredders are Oroku Sakis.
- Baxter Stockman - Mad scientist and creator of the mouser robots. Never quite seems to remain whole (or even human, in some versions).
- Karai - High ranking member of the Foot Clan who takes control of the organization after the Shredder is defeated.
KJMackley: There usually isn't a need to cut this much important information from the page entirely. It may not fit properly in the description but there is usually a trope it can fit in.
DoKnowButchie: Um, what are you responding to? My statement above regarding the character descriptions? I erased them from the description itself because it's all info that should go in the new character page, not the main one—that's partly why it was added in the first place.
Greenygal: I'm dubious about classing the turtles as a Five-Man Band, mainly because they don't have a Big Guy, and if they did it would be Raphael, not Michelangelo. (And Raphael is clearly the Lancer in this setup, so.)
DoKnowButchie: Agreed—I'd erased them from the Five-Man Band examples page for that very reason. Plus, including Casey and April implies that they are protagonists on the same level as the turtles, which has rarely been the case. As important as they are, they've almost never been intended to be anything more than secondary—and occasionally expendable—characters.
DoKnowButchie: Actually, upon looking at it a second time, I realized that the whole Five-Man Band write-up is merely the character descriptions—which I'd eliminated after the new character page made them redundant—hastily copied to the trope. Even if the classification were a correct one—and I'm pretty sure it isn't—it'd still needs a lot of editing. Removed.
KJMackley: Regarding all of that information I was saying that with this as a wiki someone put some effort and time into writing it, my own feelings are to try and keep as much of what was there before while making improvements, unless the information is outright false or just poorly written. (And in case you were wondering I wasn't the person who wrote that info in the first place.) And the character sheets aren't a substitute for listing the characters on the main entry, they are just to help clarify.
As far as the Five-Man Band, Michelangelo may not fit the physical role but his personality fits The Big Guy in the social dynamic as the kind of dense one. It would be like saying Donatello isn't The Smart Guy because he is a capable fighter. And while I know there have been many different incarnations, April and Casey are synonymous with TMNT according to 99 percent of the fans. Not listing them as part of the group would be saying that they are of no importance in any incarnation, which is false. I haven't made any changes to the main page because I avoid Edit Wars and Flame Wars as much as possible because they are't worth it. This is just my thoughts.
Greenygal: I don't really have a view as to whether Casey and April should count; I think either argument is defensible. Mikey, though—I looked through The Big Guy page and as defined I just don't see that he matches. He's not the biggest, he's not the strongest, he's not the most aggressive, he's certainly not the most intimidating, and maybe if he worked at it more he'd be the best fighter—he's got a lot of natural skill—but as it is that doesn't seem to be his role. I don't see that being socially dense is enough, by itself. (And I don't think the Don thing is a good comparison; the Smart Guy page makes it clear that you can be a fighter and still fill the role—and anyway, newtoon Don is the weakest fighter of the group, though of course that still leaves him at a high level of skill.)
KJMackley: I think Mikey is a class 4 Big Guy, a Boisterous Bruiser, as shown on The Big Guy page. There has been a lot of debate on how the Five-Man Band works, because people were shoving in any team, even if it is a single-purpose Think Tank like House, because they saw The Hero, his lancer, a Token Girl and a couple of other personalities. And on the other side of the spectrum, some people thought we should subdivide the Five-Man Band trope to account for the 30 or more different variations when the only problem was how the individual character tropes work. Like with us talking about Mikey being The Big Guy, he is not an incompetent fighter and the big guy doesn't have to be stronger/better fighter then the hero, there are plenty of other examples of that which are not disputed. For TMNT this variation is that when most other characters are solemn and serious, the one character who is jovial and goofy is the big guy.
DoKnowButchie: Boy, have I been neglecting this; here's hoping this is still relevant. Re: Casey and April: When you're talking about the cartoon Teen Titans without any modifiers, one assumes you speak of Robin, Starfire, Beast Boy, Raven, and Cyborg. When you talk about the original Mighty Morphing Power Rangers, you think of Jason, Zack, Trini, Billy, and Kimberly. However, you don't think of Casey and April when you talk about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles—they usually have to consciously be added in with a "also starring..." in order to include them. This doesn't mean they're unimportant; they're just not part of that particular configuration.
As for Mikey as a Boisterous Bruiser, that's the first time I've ever seen Mikey designated as one—that classification has usually been reserved for Casey, who I've found fits it much better. And even if Mikey were a Boisterous Bruiser, that doesn't necesarily make him The Big Guy. If the other four slots were unambigously filled, I'd be willing to let it go, but they're not.
On a similar note, the TMNT have been included as an example in the Four Temperament Example page, which I think fits the series considerably better than Five Man Band Does.
DoKnowButchie: Moved the TMNT (2007) description) and joined it with the description for the first cycle. Given that the newly-announced movie
seems to be a reboot, I thought that placing them all together would be neater than having three different descriptions for the same medium—at least until we get more details about the fifth movie, anyway.
DoKnowButchie: Changed the article pic. Nothing against the old one—it's definitively an iconic representation of the most iconic incarnation of the turtles, if that's what one is looking for—but I think this new one better expresses the idea that, hey, there are a lot of versions of the TMNT most people don't know about, including a lot of weird stuff. Plus, given that a) Archie's Future turtles are awesome, and b) we're finally seeing a revival of that version of the turtles in the next few months (subliminal message of the day: buy the upcoming "Future Tense" TPB. Then, buy "The Forever War"), I thought it'd be a nice idea for the page to reflect that.
That being said, what do y'all think of the idea of periodically changing the pic to reflect a different incarnation of the franchise—say, once every two months?
Oh, and if anyone wants to change the picture back, here it is: If anybody disagrees and wants to put the old pic back, the URL is http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/crew%5B1%5D.gif.
- Ghilz: I think we should stick with a more "classic" picture. It's what's generally done for most of the entries on this wiki (For example, Superman, Spider-Man and Batman's page contain pictures of them in outfits they are most well known for, as opposed to outfits tied to specific storyline). Not too much in favor of changing the picture every other month, as most people are not going to visit the page every months.
- DoKnowButchie:Point: even so, which incarnation of the turtles is representative of the whole is highly debatable. The cartoon may be the best known, but it represents an era which seems increasingly off tone from everything else. Even so, I'll put it back until I think of something else.
DoKnowButchie: To Ramidel: I’ve noticed that you’ve added April O’Neil as an example of a Faux Action Girl, stating that she “gets the Distress Ball far more often than an Action Girl should”. While normally I’d jump right in and defend the character, I’m actually curious about this: can you elaborate? While all incarnations of the character have had their damsel-in-distress moments (her initial meeting with the turtles being the most consistent and prominent one) I’ve always felt the Distress Ball-prone versions of the character (first cartoon version) and the Action Girl versions (latter Archie version, 4th movie) have usually been fairly exclusive to one another, and therefore none really fit the Faux Action Girl definition.
Suggestion to Create Incarnation-specific Pages
DoKnowButchie: Given how...dense the page has become, I wonder what everyone (or anyone, I suppose) thinks of creating pages for each specific incarnation. I crunched some numbers, and both cartoons can definitively support them, as can the Mirage comics—all of them have more than fifty tropes each. The Archie comics and films I’m not too sure about, but that’s ‘cause I don’t know enough about them to get an accurate idea of how many tropes each page would support (my current tally is 24 and 17, respectively—enough for a page, but possibly not enough to justify the work necessary to create them). Details and tropes belonging to a specific incarnation (such as, say, Wedding Crashers) can be moved to their appropriate pages, while those which apply to several incarnations in the same manner (such as Big Applesauce) can remain in this one, which would remain the core page for the franchise as a whole.
Anybody up for it? I’ve already written a preliminary write-up for the 2003 series, and can do ones for the ’87 toon and Mirage comics if necessary. However, I’d prefer if others could take on write-ups for the movies and the Archie comics—like I said, those are not my particular areas of expertise. Also, does anybody know if it’s possible to include parentheses/brackets in page titles—they’re kind of necessary if we’re going to distinguish between the cartoons.
ETA: Page creation begun, starting with TMNT 2003. Trope movement will begin shortly.
Ken Days: Is Shredder (1987 version) really The Dragon to Krang's Big Bad? I think Shredder acts much more like Krang's partner than his subordinate, and as such they form a Big Bad Diumvirate. Krang certainly believes that he is in charge, but he seems to be the only character who believes this. Shredder has no hesitations about arguing with Krang or undermining his authority. Bebop and Rocksteady pay little attention to Krang while being subservient to Shredder, thinking of him as their boss or even their master. And the Turtles/good guys think of Shredder as a basic force of evil rather than as Krang's ally. To take an illustrative example, when the Earth was freezing to death, and the Turtles were speculating about why it was happening Raphael announced, "I've got a feeling Shredder is behind this." No mention of Krang, and that's despite the fact that Krang's inventive ability—and not Shredder—is the reason why the villains are able to do things like cause the Earth to freeze.
Consider the episode "Shredderville." Shredder making himself emperor of Earth seems like the perfectly natural way for this alternate history to turn out. Making Krang the ruler of Earth wouldn't have had quite the same feel of "the villains have finally won." (That's why they had Krang being betrayed by Shredder and dwelling in a Used Future squalor, even though it also might have made sense to say that he returned to Dimension X and left Shredder in charge of Earth.) Contrast Emperor Shredder with Empress Shego from Kim Possible 's "A Stitch in Time." Shego really is The Dragon, so it comes across as a suprising plot development that Shego's in charge and has made Drakken her subordinate. That's how it feels when The Dragon becomes a Big Bad in his own right, and it is not how Shredderville is handled.
I edited the character page to indicate this view of Shredder and Krang's relationship, but someone undid my edits. I really think the character page should mention the Big Bad Diumvirate view of what they're like. This interpretation just seems more natural than the idea that Shredder's just The Dragon. (Maybe in the first two seasons Krang really was in charge, but I mean from Season Three on.)
DoKnowButchie: First things first: newest posts go on the bottom. Putting them up top makes them harder to notice. Second, you'll notice that when I erased Big Bad Diumvirate from the character page, it's because I moved it to the show page; I did it because a sigle character can't be a diumvirate, and therefore it's more a plot trope than a character one. Sorry for the confusion.
