Discussion Music / Crush40

Nah, they're just hard rock. Even songs like Open Your Heart are too poppy.

I don't really know "metal" in the strictest sense, but "Open Your Heart" just doesn't seem like Metal to me.

being "poppy" has nothing to do with being metal (Dio, Iron Maiden, Ozzy, all of which are metal bands, have plenty of poppy elements.. Being "poppy" doesn't make metal become hard rock . hard rock isn't really poppy at all, you're thinking of glam metal. Hard rock is a style of blues rock. They have almost zero blues in any of their songs, plus the song structure is much closer to iron maiden than ac/dc. Hard Rock isn't "rock thats not hard enough to be metal. It can even be harder than metal. (i don't think Crazy Train is as heavy as say Welcome to the Jungle, Open Your Heart is way heavier than both, easily). Actually i'd say open your heart has more metal elements than I am (alternative picking, double bass pedal, shred solo, the chorus uses a different riff than the intro etc) Some of their stuff sounds like hair metal (Gioelli certainly has experience with that) but even then, hard rock? no not really

As to the doesn't seem metal, could it be perhaps you're thinking more of "extreme metal"? it certainly isn't thrash, but not all metal is super aggressive. In fact, a lot of early metal was pretty mellow at times.

I'd say Welcome To The Jungle is speed metal, IMO. Way heavier then Open Your Heart.

Crazy Train is hard rock.

Hard Rock is very poppy, that's what separates it from Heavy Metal, IMO. Aerosmith, AC/DC, KISS, etc, have a much poppier sound then Sabbath, Maiden, Priest, Dio, etc. I wouldn't say Ozzy's solo work is heavy metal, it's much more radio-friendly then Sabbath.

I Am (All Of Me) is the only song of theirs which i'd consider metal.

Defining characteristics of Metal, IMO: - Lack of poppiness or radio-friendliness - Heavy, distorted guitar tone - Lots of weight in the sound, either from a slow, "doomy" tempo or thick bass and drums - Harsh vocals

Crush 40 has none of that, they're poppy, the guitars aren't too distorted, and the sound isn't weighty.

I've never heard Welcome to the Jungle called speed metal 0.o. is it is, its waaay slower than open your heart. speed metal is like one step away from thrash. GNR was just a hard rock band from the 80s that didn't really go glam. some called them heavy metal , but no not really

Hard Rock isn't poppy, its bluesey. AC/DC is about as far from pop as you can get. KISS, sure, but then they were also much more glam. Aerosmith didn't start off poppy either. All of those bands are pretty damn radio friendly though. Priest is the only one of them that ever got very heavy. AC/DC is actually heavier than Iron Maiden in a few ways, they have MUCH harsher vocals, and their guitar has a much dirtier , grittier sound. Sabbath was both heavy and bluesy, and fittingly, they are the link between Hard Rock and Heavy Metal

i am (all of me) is basically just turn of the century alt metal. So yes, its metal, but its not close to anything traditional. Although if you consider that metal, you'd have to call With Me metal, its pretty much the same style.

Lots of metal is both poppy and radio friendly; pretty much all Hair Metal and a lot of metalcore (well, maybe not radio friendly, but they have a lot of pop elements in it). Crush 40 does use a heavy distorted guitar tone, with heavy base and drummings. Harsh vocals are NOT a defining characteristic of the genre. That is mostly found in extreme metal. Priest, Maiden, sabbath, Dio, Alice in Chains, Metallica, Megadeth etc, none of them use harsh vocals (or at least use them sparingly)

here's a basic rundown of their songs

Open Your Heart, Through The Fire, What I'm made of - traditional style heavy metal in the vein of Maiden or Priest.

I am (All of me), and With Me - turn of the century alt metal with some industrial influence

Live and Learn, Never Turn Back, and Fire Woman - traditional style hard rock, although the former two have some metal elements.

His World - Prog rock with rap rock elements

Sonic Heroes, Knight of the Wind - just plain ol' rock. not particularly hard, not metal at all. Maybe a little punky at times

Sonic Boom, Ungravitify , All Hail Shadow- kinda like the last two, just a bit heavier. still not really metal though

All their Nascar songs - pretty much a less "80s" version of Glam Metal

Is it You, Live Life - Ballads

also, i'm curious as to what exactly 'poppy' you find in their music, or at least their heavier stuff?

Hoo boy.

"I've never heard Welcome to the Jungle called speed metal 0.o. is it is, its waaay slower than open your heart. speed metal is like one step away from thrash. GNR was just a hard rock band from the 80s that didn't really go glam. some called them heavy metal , but no not really"

GNR were primarily a hard rock band, but some songs crossed into metal, like Welcome to the Jungle. I'd say it's speed metal, reminds me of Stone Cold Crazy by Queen. Paradise City also gets pretty close to metal.

"Hard Rock isn't poppy, its bluesey."

ALL rock music is rooted in the blues, essentially. It's where it started. And not being blusey doesn't mean metal. Bands like GNR had very few blues elements in their sound.

"AC/DC is about as far from pop as you can get. KISS, sure, but then they were also much more glam. Aerosmith didn't start off poppy either. "

AC/DC and Aerosmith are very radio-friendly and poppy, catchy melodies and hooks, densely harmonized, sing-along choruses...

" Priest is the only one of them that ever got very heavy. "

If you SERIOUSLY don't think this, this, or this aren't heavy, I don't know what to tell you.

"AC/DC is actually heavier than Iron Maiden in a few ways" I am very curious to know how this is heavier than this.

"i am (all of me) is basically just turn of the century alt metal. So yes, its metal, but its not close to anything traditional. Although if you consider that metal, you'd have to call With Me metal, its pretty much the same style."

True.

"Lots of metal is both poppy and radio friendly" No, it's not.

"pretty much all Hair Metal " Hair Metal isn't metal, it's a genre which takes metal elements and places them in a pop format.

"and a lot of metalcore" Metalcore's very heavy. Bands like As I Lay Dying have REALLY heavy sounds.

"Crush 40 does use a heavy distorted guitar tone, with heavy base and drummings. " The overall sound of songs like Open Your Heart is very "lightweight" for lack of a better word, compared to the "dense" sounds of Sabbath and other metal bands.

"Harsh vocals are NOT a defining characteristic of the genre. " Pretty much every band you listed uses harsh vocals. Priest and Maiden were full of screaming, Dio regularly used a gritty vocal tone, James Hetfield's voice is VERY gruff and gritty.

As for poppy, even the "heavy" songs have catchy melodies and hooks and densely harmonised, singalong choruses.

Someone please back me up here

"GNR were primarily a hard rock band, but some songs crossed into metal, like Welcome to the Jungle. I'd say it's speed metal, reminds me of Stone Cold Crazy by Queen. Paradise City also gets pretty close to metal. "

when i think speed metal, i think stuff like painkiller. I think some of their stuff is kinda metal, but its also hard rock

Well rock was originally rooted in blues, a lot of it isn't particularly blues based now (like prog rock or modern metal, much more classically influenced) . hard rock certainly was though. In fact, early metal was bluesy too,until it wasn't.

"AC/DC and Aerosmith are very radio-friendly and poppy, catchy melodies and hooks, densely harmonized, sing-along choruses... I am very curious to know how this is heavier than this. " AC/DC has very gruff vocal styles , something pop music typically avoids. When i say some elements about them are heavier, i was mainly referring to the vocals. Maiden's are pretty clean. Those elements aren't just in pop music, they're in most forms of music. Aerosmith could get pretty heavy too, see this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIPS4LyveJs

"If you SERIOUSLY don't think this, this, or this aren't heavy, I don't know what to tell you. " sure those are heavy, relatively. But Compared to even the more tamer thrash metal (the lightest style of extreme metal), not so much. Compare Metallica's whiplash to Rainbow's kill the king. Also, again, while they are heavy, i don't really see how they are heavier than the heavier crush 40 songs

"Hair Metal isn't metal, it's a genre which takes metal elements and places them in a pop format. " That's a pretty contentious point but fair enough. Hair Metal is basically throwing metal, hard rock, and pop rock in a blender, with some bands more metal than others, but even the most metal hair metal bands had a pop element

"Metalcore's very heavy. Bands like As I Lay Dying have REALLY heavy sounds. " Yeah, they're pretty heavy (they're also very thrashy compared to most modern metalcore) but look at all that remains and killswitch engaged: they're also heavy (heavier than crush 40 for sure) but they still have poppy clean choruses and hooks. And there are far more poppy bands in the genre than that, although i guess one could say they weren't metal.

"The overall sound of songs like Open Your Heart is very "lightweight" for lack of a better word, compared to the "dense" sounds of Sabbath and other metal bands. " I don't think Sabbath is a good comparison, because they're much slower.

"Pretty much every band you listed uses harsh vocals. Priest and Maiden were full of screaming, Dio regularly used a gritty vocal tone, James Hetfield's voice is VERY gruff and gritty. " having a gritty vocal tone isn't really harsh. Unless you'd want to consider AC/DC again. Also, please take note that the vocalist of crush 40 is also the vocalist of a power metal band, Axel Rudi Pell, and sings pretty much exactly the same

"As for poppy, even the "heavy" songs have catchy melodies and hooks and densely harmonised, singalong choruses. " this song is pretty densely harmonized, but its also heavy as fuck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFgAE5SgFnw

you wanna call stuff like Sonic Heroes, or even Live and Learn poppy, sure, but open your heart is a lot faster and more technical , and the riff is more metal. i'm not saying all of their songs are metal, just that a enough to call them a hard rock/ metal band is pretty warranted

"when i think speed metal, i think stuff like painkiller. I think some of their stuff is kinda metal, but its also hard rock"

Maybe speed metal's the wrong term, but Welcome to the Jungle is definitely metal to me.

"Well rock was originally rooted in blues, a lot of it isn't particularly blues based now (like prog rock or modern metal, much more classically influenced) . hard rock certainly was though. In fact, early metal was bluesy too,until it wasn't."

That is true.

"AC/DC has very gruff vocal styles , something pop music typically avoids"

But their melodies are typically very radio friendly. And pop music sometimes does have very gruff vocal styles, such as rapper Lil Jon.

"i was mainly referring to the vocals. Maiden's are pretty clean."

Right.

"Those elements aren't just in pop music, they're in most forms of music. "

No, they're not. I sure can't find any poppy elements in say, Iron Man by Black Sabbath, or Stargazer by Rainbow.

"Aerosmith could get pretty heavy too, see this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIPS4LyveJs"

Still not very heavy compared to proper metal bands.

"sure those are heavy, relatively. But Compared to even the more tamer thrash metal (the lightest style of extreme metal), not so much. Compare Metallica's whiplash to Rainbow's kill the king."

I agree with that.

"Also, again, while they are heavy, i don't really see how they are heavier than the heavier crush 40 songs"

The guitar tone is much heavier, the riffs and melodies are less poppy, the sound is much more weighty.

"Yeah, they're pretty heavy (they're also very thrashy compared to most modern metalcore) but look at all that remains and killswitch engaged: they're also heavy (heavier than crush 40 for sure) but they still have poppy clean choruses and hooks. And there are far more poppy bands in the genre than that, although i guess one could say they weren't metal."

But the melodies and riffs aren't radio friendly at all.

"I don't think Sabbath is a good comparison, because they're much slower."

Maiden and Rainbow have much weightier sounds as well.

" having a gritty vocal tone isn't really harsh. Unless you'd want to consider AC/DC again. Also, please take note that the vocalist of crush 40 is also the vocalist of a power metal band, Axel Rudi Pell, and sings pretty much exactly the same"

Just saying most metal bands use gritty tones. There are some exceptions (Sabbath, Queensryche) but not too many.

"you wanna call stuff like Sonic Heroes, or even Live and Learn poppy, sure, but open your heart is a lot faster and more technical , and the riff is more metal."

The melody is very poppy, the guitar tone isn't very heavy, the sound's not too weighty.

"i'm not saying all of their songs are metal, just that a enough to call them a hard rock/ metal band is pretty warranted"

Calling them a metal band just because they had a couple of metal songs is like calling The Beatles an avant-garde noise group because they made "Revolution 9" or calling Led Zeppelin a reggae band because they made "D'yer Maker", or calling Pink Floyd a proto-grunge band because they made "The Nile Song" and "Ibiza Bar".

"Maybe speed metal's the wrong term, but Welcome to the Jungle is definitely metal to me. " enough people on wikipedia seem to agree with you, so i guess i'll concede that point. It still sounds more hard rock to me. when i think of more metal GNR, i'd think civil war

"But their melodies are typically very radio friendly. And pop music sometimes does have very gruff vocal styles, such as rapper Lil Jon. " If by radio friendly, you mean played on rock radio, sure. but rock radio plays a bunch of metal too. Hell, i've even heard slayer. but you won't find AC/DC on pop radio. I guess you could say they have a more mainstream sound

"No, they're not. I sure can't find any poppy elements in say, Iron Man by Black Sabbath, or Stargazer by Rainbow. " no, i can't, but i meant those same 'poppy' elements are in stuff like reggae , or blues rock, rap, country etc. they aren't pop exclusive.

"Still not very heavy compared to proper metal bands. " i'd argue its pretty in line with some proto metal in terms of heaviness, but true. still not very pop.

"The guitar tone is much heavier, the riffs and melodies are less poppy, the sound is much more weighty. " heaviness in music is a bit of an abstract concept, and is, to some extent subjective. I'd find the guitar in OYH heavier than in say the iron maiden song "quest for fire". But you clearly disagree. But even if it was lighter toned, hard rock isn't just lighter toned metal, its a different style of music, that metal evolved from. if you took the trooper and put less distortion on the guitars it wouldn't magically be hard rock, the riffs are all wrong

"But the melodies and riffs aren't radio friendly at all. " if you took away the screaming, they'd get rock radio play. The music is heavy yes, but not THAT heavy

"Maiden and Rainbow have much weightier sounds as well. " i'd say they're more in line with that much weightier

"Just saying most metal bands use gritty tones. There are some exceptions (Sabbath, Queensryche) but not too many. " Most power metal i'd say. A lot of alt metal bands don't either, with the exception of a random scream here and there

"Calling them a metal band just because they had a couple of metal songs is like calling The Beatles an avant-garde noise group because they made "Revolution 9" or calling Led Zeppelin a reggae band because they made "D'yer Maker", or calling Pink Floyd a proto-grunge band because they made "The Nile Song" and "Ibiza Bar". " Fair point, but remember, crush 40 has only a few songs in general. In fact, they are quite different from most bands in general. each songs is likely to have different session musicians. and each song sounds pretty different. Open your heart to live and learn to sonic heroes to what i'm made of, they don't really sound a like. But if a bout a 4rth of their songs are metal (of some description) or at least contain metal elements, would it not be fair to list it as one of their styles?

"enough people on wikipedia seem to agree with you, so i guess i'll concede that point. It still sounds more hard rock to me. when i think of more metal GNR, i'd think civil war"

Civil War's not metal at all, it's just a power ballad with no metal elements. Welcome to the Jungle is very heavy for GNR.

" If by radio friendly, you mean played on rock radio, sure. but rock radio plays a bunch of metal too. Hell, i've even heard slayer. but you won't find AC/DC on pop radio. I guess you could say they have a more mainstream sound"

AC/DC's sound is very radio friendly, there's no metal elements in it, and it has lots of poppiness.

"but i meant those same 'poppy' elements are in stuff like reggae , or blues rock, rap, country etc. they aren't pop exclusive."

Correct.

"i'd argue its pretty in line with some proto metal in terms of heaviness, but true. still not very pop."

No, it's not very pop, but not too metal either.

"I'd find the guitar in OYH heavier than in say the iron maiden song "quest for fire". "

I'd say the song itself is heavier, however. "But even if it was lighter toned, hard rock isn't just lighter toned metal, its a different style of music, that metal evolved from. if you took the trooper and put less distortion on the guitars it wouldn't magically be hard rock, the riffs are all wrong"

If that's not your definition of hard rock and heavy metal then what is? I don't think it's the presence of blues elements, hard rock is just heavier then regular rock but not enough to be metal. I can't think of any hard rock songs that are heavier then any metal songs, discounting ballads or proggier stuff that have many dynamics.

"if you took away the screaming, they'd get rock radio play. The music is heavy yes, but not THAT heavy"

Nah, All That Remains is significantly heavier then, say, Crush 40.

"Most power metal i'd say. A lot of alt metal bands don't either, with the exception of a random scream here and there"

You may be right.

"Fair point, but remember, crush 40 has only a few songs in general. In fact, they are quite different from most bands in general. each songs is likely to have different session musicians. and each song sounds pretty different. Open your heart to live and learn to sonic heroes to what i'm made of, they don't really sound a like. But if a bout a 4rth of their songs are metal (of some description) or at least contain metal elements, would it not be fair to list it as one of their styles?"

They all have a similar sound to me, melodic hard rock, with upbeat, happy melodies, dense harmonies, lack of weight to the sound. I'd only consider With Me and I Am All of Me metal.

Can we PLEASE just drop this argument already? It's exhausting.