Redefine or rename: Villainy Discretion Shot

this trope is very much maligned. when people are not confusing it with Offstage Villainy, they're potholing it indiscriminately to "any evil act that happens off-camera (or obscured)," without taking into account there's a second part of the trope— that this is downplayed or never brought up with the purpose of keeping the villain likable or at the very least away from the Moral Event Horizon. i think it has a lot to do with the similarity with Gory Discretion Shot, which is much more about the cinematography itself.

Villainy Discretion Shot is found in 48 articles, and has brought 14 people to the wiki.

checking some of the wicks. help would be appreciated for some of these, as i'm not familiar with the works:

• Twenty Four: Incorrect. It is stated that the character's "unexpected visit" is a Moral Event Horizon, yet potholes VDS to "not actually shown."
• The Good The Bad And The Ugly: Seems correct, but not familiar enough with the movie.
• All the Myriad Ways: "But if heroes from our world visit the Alternate Universe, they won't care what happens there. Typically, neither do the audience." taken completely out of context (and even if it were in context, the death of abe lincoln would hardly be a case of this), so incorrect.
• Asshole Victim: dude from Fate Stay Night was minced off-camera after being already defeated. hardly downplayed. incorrect.
• A Taste of the Lash: flogging is hardly ever downplayed. and the particular example is frollo, pretty much the poster-boy for Complete Monster disney villains, who is basically supervising the flogger on how to make it hurt more. so, incorrect.
• Batman: can't remember much of that movie, but it seems correct.
• The Cyantian Chronicles: has "a serious storyline and violence" which is "typically handled" with a VDS. incorrect.
• Darker Than Black: seems correct.
• Darkwing Duck: seems correct, but the example isn't very clear and i'm not familiar enough with the work.
• Desperate Housewives: seems correct.
• Family-Unfriendly Death: the Revenge Of The Sith example says anakin's killing younglings gets a VDS but "remains chilling." i'm thinking incorrect.
• The History Of The Devil: the "you can't fit in everything the devil has done" bit makes me think it's incorrect, but i'm not familiar enough with the work to know, downplaying his evilness seems like the whole point of it.
• Humanx Commonwealth: not familiar enough with the work.
• King Of New York: i'm really not sure how to take this one. we don't see the consequences of the lesser of two evils, but i'm thinking nobody takes the drug dealing as something unimportant... incorrect?
• Knights Of The Old Republic: seems correct.
• Layer Cake: seems correct, as it's the drug dealer himself downplaying his villainy.
• Les Chimeres De Mirinar: not familiar enough with the work.
• Once Upon A Time In The West: seems correct.
• Private Schulz: seems correct.
• Robin Hood: probably correct. they do make a big deal of guy abandoning his baby during the episode, but after that, nothing, and he veers between villain and antihero for most of the series.
• Scrubs: no detail is given, but probably correct.
• Shadowgirls: not familiar enough with the work.
• Silver Resistance: seems correct.
• Strangers In Paradise: potholes "killing people horribly" to VDS. incorrect.
• Suicide Kings: not entirely sure, but it seems incorrect given that we're talking about gangsters.

9 out of 25 = 36%, and that's not counting the ones i didn't know. a lot of the rest of the 48 wicks are repeated examples, indices, and there are a couple pages in italian...

suggested courses of action: either redefine to make it just about the "camera cuts away from a villainous act" cinematographic trope, or rename it (the Discretion Shot part) so it doesn't get confused for such.

edited 1st Nov '10 1:32:44 PM by carla

Not much I can say other than terrible, terrible name. The actual trope seems good, but it needs a name that actually reflects it.

I'm with him.The only name I can really come up with is Downplayed Villainy, which is pretty dry IMO. Think I'll wait to see if anyone comes up with anything better.

Downplayed Villainy is a big step in the right direction, that's for sure.

page action crowner here. please vote, we can discuss alternative titles once there's consensus for a rename.

I'm going to say that my use of it in Humanx Commonwealth is actually incorrect and probably qualifies as a Gory Discretion Shot instead, or maybe a Squick Discretion Shot (note to self: might make a good trope). The idea isn't to downplay Challis' villainy, but rather quite the opposite - to show how sick and perverted he is without having to describe it to the audience.

I was going to vote against this crowner until I thought about it a bit and realized why we have this problem. This trope is indeed being used to describe two separate things: where a villain's actions are not shown to keep them out of Complete Monster status, versus a technique of implying but not showing horrific violence/sex/whatever in order to avoid Squicking the audience.

edited 8th Nov '10 8:05:05 AM by Fighteer

i definitely agree that we're talking about two different tropes here. i voted for a split myself— however, i'm not entirely sure the second trope you described is any different from Gory Discretion Shot. as far as i can see, most of the incorrect uses of the trope could fit under that one. and in that case it wouldn't be a split so much as a redefinition and purge...?

There will come a point where we need to define the "split" trope and that's where we'll decide if it'll merge with Gory Discretion Shot.

"...(b) when the camera cuts away from a villainous scene to avoid frightening the audience or increasing the work's rating."

Isn't that exactly Gory Discretion Shot? So the actual issue is Gory Discretion Shots are erroneously added as examples to Villainy Discretion Shot (which is supposed to only be "when an evil act is not shown to keep a villain from becoming unsympathetic") and should be cut?

that this is downplayed or never brought up with the purpose of keeping the villain likable or at the very least away from the Moral Event Horizon.

Offstage Villainy has a line describing this: Of course, this makes it easier for fans to accept a Heel Face Turn if they haven't actually done anything to make the audience dislike them

We should lose this trope and adjust the definition of Offstage Villainy to encompass both rationales (making a Designated Villain seem more evil and a Heel–Face Turn villain seem less evil). I don't see why we need 2 tropes to describe the same thing for different reasons.

well, i guess if the split wins, we could simply decide afterward on what to do with the split examples. going by that logic, (a) would be added to Offstage Villainy and (b) would be added to Gory Discretion Shot.

i could edit that little note in to the already existing option. or do you guys think we should add that specific option to the crowner?

IMO such a maneuver is already implied.

One possible save: redefine this trope to mean when the villain is about to do something evil, then the scene cuts away completely without revealing to the viewer if they did it or not, like in the 24 example (no Gory Discretion Shot or Sound-Only Death, just a complete cut-away, and usually some expository dialogue later to confirm it did happen)

edited 4th Jan '11 8:19:30 PM by DarkNemesis

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