It's a Gundam thread!

Or maybe willful denial. I mean, we've got people like that in the context of the actual, historical Nazis, not fictional Space Nazis, so...

There's certainly gonna be Operation British deniers in the UC that's for sure.

Especially after the 'Operation Stardust was a Federation false flag' theorists started disappearing.

I assume people ignore Zeon literally dropping a colony on Earth causing more deaths than the bubonic plague & that Ghiren wanted to do more of that shit & was outright called inhuman by his father who was horrified by the whole thing.

Ah people are funny.

At least the Earth Fed didn't have a pro-space fascist president in the UC, thank fuck

I mean they were still kinda lagging behind but so many pro-Zeon fans insist that apparently the Federation no matter what time frame are so fucking incompetent they can barely fucking chew but they're still democratic once the Titans are told to fuck off.

I... don't know if it's relevant and don't want to self-promote, but I brought up the issue in the AU I recently started actually writing.

In an early scene, Amuro acknowledges in an internal monologue that the Federation does have its faults: the Titans, the shit Haman was pissed about, attempting to bribe Char with real estate (that is, Axis) despite knowing full well what he's capable of. Yet despite those, he also notes that in the end, the Federation did tell the Titans to fuck right off after Dakar, which is why he's sticking with them. It's not ideal, but it's still by far the best option.

Meanwhile, Char rationalizes in an internal monologue of his own that he wants to destroy the Federation because he feels its administration is too attached to the status quo, so leaving them in power would indeed result in peace, but also in humanity slowly wasting away from being held back. Yes, it's the "souls held down by gravity" drivel, just with different wording (less metaphor, in particular). He does not, for even a second, try to excuse Zeon, nor does he want them to be in charge. Basically, he believes all the possible moves are bad, so it's time to flip the chess table and reset the game.

What do you guys think, is this in-character for the two? The logic here is that both want the same thing: to build a better future. The difference is that Amuro believes that stability will allow the current system (the Federation) to be the foundation for that future, whereas Char believes the system needs to be torn down and a new one built in its place. Same goal, different methods. Their conflict isn't due to not understanding each other; they understand each other just fine, they just disagree with each other.

That more or less sounds like their respective positions in CCA, though more nuanced and with some differences in Char's focus.

Mind, the base idea of this AU is that at the end of CCA, both Amuro and Char refuse to accept all the shit that went down up until that point and the Nu's psycofield responds to their will with Mental Time Travel.

The very first thing Char does once he stops freaking out is sitting down and writing a list of what to do about the Zabis, now that he has the benefit of hindsight (do note that these are Char's opinions, not objective opinions):

• Degwin: kill. Too much blood on his hands.
• Gihren: kill. Goes without saying.
• Kycilia: kill. Not quite as psychotic as Gihren (Damned by Faint Praise, much...?) and did kill the guy in the end, but overall too dangerous. Best not to take any chances.
• Dozle: question mark. Too stupid to be a real threat and not a monster like Gihren or Kycilia, but too loyal to the family to not do everything they say. Killing him is a waste of time and effort anyway, since he's a dead man either way: if Char doesn't kill him, either Amuro does or the Federation war crimes tribunal hangs him for his role in Operation British (which Char doesn't approve of, but is fully aware he's the last person in a position to criticize Dozle for).
• Garma: no killing. Impressionable like Dozle, but generally lacks the stomach to get his hands dirty. Useless for anything other than PR, killing him would only give Gihren propaganda ammunition and Char doesn't want to give the bastard the satisfaction. The sentimental value of him having been the closest thing Char ever had to a friend has nothing to do with it.
• Zenna: no killing. No threat whatsoever.
• Mineva: no killing. Aside from being no threat as anything other than a figurehead (Char hadn't lived long enough to know her circa Unicorn), Char has enough enemies already than to have the entire Principality out for his blood. Killing Degwin's favored son would get him scorned; killing an infant would get him lynched and hanging from a lamppost.
• Glemy as an afterthought addition: question mark. Char heard of the rumors, but doesn't actually know if the kid is truly related to Gihren or not. If he is, Gihren obviously doesn't care since he hadn't paraded Glemy around to shill himself to the public. If anything, he's more like Dozle than Gihren: stupid and idealistic, but loyal to the family (according to what Char heard second-hand; he never actually met Glemy in the flesh) and after the whole fuckup with Quess and Gyunei, Char has no patience with herding snot-nosed brats around to make them look at the bigger picture.

Even though he wants to topple the Federation, Char has absolutely no intention of leaving the Zabis in charge. He merely considers them a means to an end: their downfall is already assured, but that doesn't mean they can't bleed the Federation before then.

Edited by amitakartok on Dec 12th 2018 at 5:30:39 PM

I'm not sure I'd buy Char carefully mapping out an ideology for declaring war on Earth unless he was metaphorically (or possibly literally) forced at gunpoint to do so. CCA was less a rational act and more a midlife crisis married to his self-sabotaging phobia of responsibility. If he had a chance to do it all over again, he'd probably just run off, adopt a half-assed new identity, hire himself out as a mercenary, pick up girls who are slightly too young for him, and keep an eye out for any Pegasus-class ships rolling through his neck of the woods until he either drinks himself to death, gets jumped by a Newtype with a Bigger Stick, or accidentally stumbles across a genuinely talented therapist.

The answer to the question of where the "good and brave Zeon" narrative comes from differs based on the location.

In the west, it is mostly compared to Nazis, so it mostly attracts Nazi sympathisers as someone mentioned before me.

But to anyone familiar with Imperial Japan of World War 2, it is obvious that Zeon is actually Space Imperial Japan in Nazi clothings (they did not pull the Side-Co Prosperity Sphere out of nowhere).

So we have three broad categories of "good and brave Zeon" sympathisers:

1. Nazi sympathisers

2. Far-right idiots in Japan

3. Weebs, who take their admiration too far

Tomino may be hit or miss, but I appreciate that he made it crystal clear that despite the depiction of Zeon and the Federation as a more grey area in terms of characters and personality, the political situation is far from that. It goes without saying that Zeon is a hypocritical, genocidal empire far worse than the flawed but democratic Federation.

Onto more Zeta Gundam, because it's been awhile.

Ep-22

• "The Eyes of Siorocco" the eyes of a Predator.
• Seriously Paptimus gives Char a run for his money in being the ped comet.
• Hey Jerid. Oh hey you're being responsible!
• Paptimus is being reasonable? What?
• Jerid moving up in the world.
• Kamile gets his signature Gundam.
• Fa wear some damn pants!
• Reccoa the messenger.
• Raddish. Radditz! KAKARROT!
• Tactical thought with Bright
• Jerid babysitting.
• He's got a point, you gotta kill if you wanna survive war, a sad truth.
• Also seriously, the Titans are Zeon hunters right? WHY ARE SO MANY OF THEIR SUITS MONOEYES?!
• Jerid becoming less reasonable.
• New Commercial bumper
• Did Fa just steal a Mobile Suit?!
• That's not unreasonable really.
• "IS THAT THE GUNDAM MK 2?!" Jerid you dumbass
• Don't be rude Fa
• The Transformation is cool
• Welp she's dead.
• He's not wrong.
• Pap you have a sword, why do you have a sword?

Ep-23

• "Moon Attack" Oh no they're gonna drop the moon!
• Wong assigning Char to bodyguard? Guess he picked the Wong time to get moving.
• Char can argue with Wong.
• Arguing over cleaning.
• Kamile is developing.
• Emma is sass.
• Fa and Kamile are still arguing.
• Hong Kong!
• Planning time with the titans.
• Pap picking on Jerid
• Gender Politics about women in war.
• To War with the Titans on Von Braun.
• Haro meets with Kamile
• Fa seems nervous.
• Also back to the Zaku like Hizacks. Seriously they are pretty much just Federation Zakus, aka the mobile suit of the enemy... WHO APPROVED THIS IN THE TITANS?! "Oh yeah we'll hunt Zeon using Zeonic designs!"
• "Von Brown" don't they mean Von Brawn? Or Van Braun.
• Gotta say the action is good though.
• Music is good too.
• Tactical Retreat.
• Jerid is insulted, but accepting of it.
• Pap is slapped, Pap slap and I'm approving of it.
• Fa is moody.
• People are praising.

In my experience, the people who actually think Zeon are the good guys rather than just Rooting for the Empire about it is because they take it as fact that UC Gundam is Grey-and-Gray Morality and work backwards from there, rather than judging each side based on what we're shown about them. If you start from the position that both sides are equally bad, then Zeon can have the more attractive narrative as the plucky underdog that punched above their weight class and almost managed to topple the status quo in the name of independence and freedom.

Of course, the "both sides are as bad as each other" thing is absolutely not supported by the show itself. The Federation is mildly corrupt and heavily bureaucratic, but Zeon is corrupt to the core and murdered billions of people. There's simply no comparison.

What Gundam did that was different at the time was show that even though Zeon as a faction are the standard evil invaders, not every single Zeon-aligned character is a moustachio-twirling, puppy-kicking asshole, and not every Federation-aligned character is a brave, heroic paragon of virtue. But just because some individual characters like Ramba Ral seem to be genuinely decent people, that doesn't mean that Zeon as a whole aren't psychotic genocidal assholes.

(As an aside, I find it somewhat ironic that Zeta, one of the most highly praised UC works, is an exception to this general rule. Absolutely everyone in the Titans is a raging unsympathetic asshole, and those few that aren't either defect, like Emma, or eventually become one, like Jerid. Meanwhile, everyone in the AEUG is a brave, principled soldier fighting for the good of humanity and the triumph of good over evil. So, you know, so much for nuanced characterization there.)

Edited by NativeJovian on Dec 13th 2018 at 7:51:12 AM

Basically yeah. Also ZZ.

Yes I know the Federation let Zeon drop a colony on Dublin to lower numbers so they wouldn't have to expend resources looking after so many people but that still doesn't change that Zeon dropped a fucking colony on a major civilian population center in the first motherfucking place. I just know someone out there uses this as proof that he Federation are somehow worse than those mass-murdering Zeon pricks because "w-w-w-well the federation are meanies uwu!"

Don't forget there were evacuation efforts by Dublin, only for every civilian ship to be shot down and forced back. Zeon wanted everyone dead, this isn't the accident of the OYW where they missed by a fucking long shot, this is deliberate.

It's also the third time Zeon has dropped a colony on the planet.

I really hate the Hizacks, despite liking its design. The only reason they exist is because they wanted to duplicate "Gundam vs. Zaku" even though it made negative sense for the Titans to use Zaku-looking machines, and no amount of fan-wank "well, it shows how corrupt the Titans were!" will change that.

I always took the Federation officers from ZZ as being a Vichy France sort of thing. They're a handful of bastards who got caught up in Haman's invasion and decided to throw in with her, rather than indicative of the Federation sentiment as a whole. After all, we see later that the Federation had been keeping its head down and building an army of GM IIIs to fight Neo Zeon with (necessary because the Gryps Conflict had virtually wiped out the EFSF), so it's not like the Federation just gave up completely and the AEUG were the only ones resisting.

Regarding the Hizack, from a real-world perspective, it's not unheard of for a military to adopt enemy tech if it's better than their own. The Zaku, while not high performance, was cheap and reliable — likely a priority for the Titans, given that they were building an entirely new support system (separate from the EFF's) for themselves. Of course, the real reason is that bad guys have to have bad guy mechs, but still, it's not completely ridiculous.

Adopting their tech, sure. Pretty sure it's canon that Zeon engineers joined the Federation, if not the Titans.

Adopting their design motifs? Utterly nonsensical.

Remember, this and this are the same machine.

Especially given the Titans essentially ran on anti-Zeon propaganda, any Watsonian explanations are going to ring incredibly hollow.

I believe the story is that Zeon engineers joined Anaheim, which then started building MS for the Federation.

And visual motif is part and parcel with mechanical design. Military equipment doesn't have any cosmetic parts — if it's there, it's there for a reason. You can either redesign it to make it look more how you want (which costs money and may compromise the effectiveness of the original design), or you can slap cosmetic parts on top of it (which will, if nothing else, reduce performance by adding mass). If the Titans were pushing their available resources to the limit, then it's conceivable that they wouldn't bother with either of those options, and just roll with a Zeonic-looking mecha.

I think the reason I prefer Zechs over Char is Zechs has plan for after revenge

Not revenge then figure the rest out later

_____

[1]

Even if I bought the both sides are bad to begin with... Zeon pretty much out bastards the Feds at every turn

It takes alot of filtering to view Zeon's constant slaughtering of civilians and fellow spacenoids 'IE the people they are suppose to be fighting for' for them to seem like the better side of the coin.

Its like ZAFT except without the Cartoonishly evil Alliance and the Author Bias... and just like Zeon

ZAFT still finds away to out bastard the Alliance

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:51:08 AM

I mean again, the Gerbera. Or the Sinanju. You can give a mobile suit a different head design without much difficulty. Or just not painting them green.

If the USAF painted them in Luftwaffe colors and named it the F-Me-262.

Edited by Larkmarn on Dec 13th 2018 at 4:45:29 AM

I figure it's a reference to Operation Paperclip, which resulted in Nazi scientists ending up as a major influence on US aerospace tech. The Hizack is basically the F-86 to the Zaku's Me-262.

Edited by Iaculus on Dec 13th 2018 at 5:39:39 PM

This hypocrisy is the reason, why I can not wrap my head around the fact that remnants of Zeon are constantly spawning out of nowhere. The cognitive dissonance among spacenoids is way beyond Willing Suspension of Disbelief for me.

I would love to see the OYW from the angles of the Sides in between Zeon and the Federation. One of my favourite aspect of the first season of Gundam 00 was the outside reaction and commentary in regards to the unfolding events. Substitute that with the OYW and with civilians, soldiers and politicians from Sides like the Riah Republic and I think it would make a compelling concept.

I think the problem with the Titans is any sympathetic member dies relatively quickly or in the case of Sarah is inlove with the wrong person

Or it's Advance of Zeta.

Some sad news here, the author of Thunderbolt is coming back from hiatus but due to his medical condition of inflammation of tendons worsening in his left hand, he is unable or at least it would be difficult to maintain the high level of art quality for the series.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2018-12-14/gundam-thunderbolt-manga-resumes-ohtagaki-changes-art-style/.140796

So alas he is forced to shift to a new drawing style so he’s left hand won’t get any worse. He acknowledges that the shift will most likely receive mixed reception but he stressed that it’s the only way for him to keep drawing the manga.

Damn, poor guy am I right?

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 14th 2018 at 6:21:57 AM